LL-L "Language politics" 2008.11.04 (05) [A/E]

Tue Nov 4 22:16:51 UTC 2008

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

Ek glo ons moet hierdie basiese vraag beantwoord:

Wat het beter oorlewingskanse, 'n dialek of 'n (offisieël herken)
onafhanklik taal?

Moenie vergeet nie: Ek respek jou opinie, maar ek is skepties aangaande sy
uitgangspunt.

Suppose Malaysian English would get official status in Malaysia: would that
enhance its position?

Look at the case of Singapore: It isn't quite obvious what should happen
with Singlish, is it? At least not according to the government. They fear
that promotion of the language would alienate speakers from the rest of the
world.

Wouldn't the creation of a third official language in Israël (English next
to Hebrew and Arabic) give rise to more problems than it would solve?

If the almost extinct Macau Creole Patúa would nowadays become official
(next to Cantonese Chinese and Portuguese), would it survive? Maybe the Dóci
Língu just prefers to die in peace and beauty instead of upheaval?

Is the US federal government ready to give some "dying" (non-English based)
languages/dialects official status?

Mind you, I don't mind supporting any endangered language myself...quite the
contrary...but formalizing it, can sometimes be a bridge too far methinks.

Ek is ook wat skepties...maybe it's just the time of the year.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: Even though Halloween is kind of a non-event around here *s*.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

 Hi and thanks, Luc!

I know what you are trying to get at, but I don't think your analogies work.

Not talking about immigrant communities, Afrikaans and Dutch are official in
two countries on two continents respectively, not in the same country.
Besides, Afrikaans is used natively by a mixture of ethnic groups none of
which considers itself Dutch.

A more apt analogy might be "Hindi" varieties (predominantly Bhojpuri, with
various names) used in Fiji, Suriname, Mauritius and the West Indies in
relation to Hindi of India. All of them are uniquely adapted to their
environments, have developed their own grammars and have been infused with
numerous Indian and non-Indian influences.

Malaysian English, like Singaporean and Indian English, is a widely
recognized English dialect. Despite loan expressions and some Chinese- and
Malay-derived particles it can hardly be considered a language in its own
right.

But even within the same country a European language and its local
derivative can coexist quite well and the officially recognized derivative
(creole) language enjoys official status, use in education and the media and
therefore a measure of prestige. Examples are Morisyen next to French in
Mauritius (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/morisyen-info.php), Seselwa
next to French in the Seychelles, Tok Pisin next to English in Papua New
Guinea (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/tokpisin-intro.php), Cape Verdean
Creole next to Portuguese in Cape Verde, and Haitian Creole next to French
in Haiti). Without official recognition there tends to be no prestige and
therefore poor chances of survival, especially where low prestige is
involved.

Despite a high degree of mutual comprehensibility, I do not believe that
Afrikaans and Dutch should be considered one language. Afrikaans grammar is
highly idiosyncratic, as is much of its lexicon and idiom. Even though it
started off as a form of Dutch, I feel it came into its own at the latest
when Dutch came to be abandoned as the "high" language in Southern Africa
and the notion of independent "Afrikanerdom" came to be embraced, at which
time uniquely Afrikaans features and development came to be preferred. So
there is a history of endeavor to be independent from the Dutch-speaking
world.

This is just *my* opinion, mind you. I just feel that it's ultimately up to
Afrikaans speakers to decide, not to the outside, including Dutch speakers.

You asked:

Wouldn't the creation of a third official language in Israël (English next
to Hebrew and Arabic) give rise to more problems than it would solve?

English *is *official next to Hebrew and Arabic in Israel, has been so since
the foundation of the state. It may well be just a matter of time that
Russian will officially join them, since it is already *de facto* a major
language in Israel. There are in fact predominantly English-speaking
communities in Israel, some of which I have visited myself, and individuals
there do in fact communicate with administrative bodies in English.
Multilingualism is not much of a problem in that country.

You asked further:

If the almost extinct Macau Creole Patúa would nowadays become official
(next to Cantonese Chinese and Portuguese), would it survive?

It might, if official recognition came with real action, such as promotion
and use in education and the media. However, "almost extinct" is not exactly
a fair argument case, because you are talking about a small miracle here.
The case of Afrikaans can not be compared with that. Besides, as far as I
know, the majority of Afrikaans speakers do not consider their language a
subset of Dutch, nor is the language close to extinction at this juncture.

And:

Is the US federal government ready to give some "dying" (non-English based)
languages/dialects official status?

Again, this not a fair comparison, since the US federal government has no
language policy and no official language (aside from the fact that Afrikaans
is not a moribund language). No, English is *not* the official language of
the US, though some, especially Hispanophobes, want to make it such, and
make it exclusively English in the "English Only Movement". English is only
the *de facto* lingua franca. Some states have enshrined English as their
official language, though. If English did become the official language of
the entire US (on a federal level), then, I bet you, there would be minority
language recognition demands, definitely from Spanish speakers (who make up
a very large portion of the population). Since reservations are independent
from the states in which they are located they have their own governments,
laws and law enforcement authorities and are only under the supervision of
the federal government (United States Department of the Interior's Bureau of
Indian Affairs). I believe it's up to each Native nation to decide what
languages, if any, are official within its territory, or whether or not it
wants to have language policies. They are semi-independent (colonized)
nations; in other words, they have limited national sovereignty. If I am
right, then this would be a non-issue within the national arena. However, I
would expect demands from autochtonous language communities such as those of
Spanish, Louisiana Regional French (Cajun French), Pennsylvania German
("Pennsylvania Dutch"), Gullah (Sea Island Creole English), Hawaiian,
Samoan, Chamorro, Carolinian, and perhaps even those that have developed
American dialects of Low Saxon in the Midwest.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
(with one eye on the so far empty election result boards)
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