LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.20 (02) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 20 November 2008 - Volume 02
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use"

Beste Ron,



Or, you could just turn away from them and ignore them if they ignore your
objection. Of course this would make you seem rude, but then again, *they* are
rude.

Or, Diederik, very heavy-accented and Scots-infused Scottish English and see
them react to that.



Simple, just answer in French. Not too many Northerners speak (good)
French...and if they do, there's a fair chance they may be ashamed of their
own accent.

Mmm...guess I'm wrong: a bashful Dutchman? Is that a contradictio in
terminis? Or an oxymoron? *s*

Naah...quite frankly: If you'd answer in French, I'm quite sure most would
keep on chattering in English. Yes folks, this is how "minor" languages
actually commit suicide...truth can be stranger than fiction. And true it
is; here in Brussels, many French speakers would rather switch to English
when addressing a Fleming (even if they could get their act together in
Dutch), than using Dutch. This is what "status" and "losing face" is all
about.



On a more positive note, one could also say that using a third language,
both speakers avoid having to bow. Using a third language they are both on
foreign ground. The problem is: If I was raised in the Randstad, totally
accustomed to standard Dutch, and I know that the one that I'm talking to
primarily speaks dialect, what can we do? The dialect speaker could try to
find the middle way, using some sort of "Missingsch", one would say in
German. However, what can the Randstad-guy do? I'm quite sure most cannot
immediately change the register and swap to artificial semi-dialect. So if
he keeps on talking standard, while at the same time the other guy is doing
his best to make himself understood, there'd be a significant advantage for
the Randstedeling. Maybe that's why unarming and using English can also be
viewed like some sort of "necessary evil".



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx


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From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (01) [E]

Hi all,

Heather, language block is the zenith of frustration!
I go to swimming class every evening and there is a younger blonde woman
whose English is very clipped so I thought she could be Afrikaans
speaking. But it is now three weeks and I still speak in Afrikaans to her
and she still in clipped English although she speaks Afrikaans to her kids
on the cellphone! Agghhhh!

Headshaking,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: Jenny Kool <J.Kool at reginacoeli.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (04) [E]

Heather, Diederik et al.,

In het taleninstituut waar ik werk, hoor ik dezelfde verhalen, vooral van
Engelstaligen die Nederlands leren bij ons. Een 'overlevingszin' die we hen
leren te gebruiken is: "Ik versta geen Engels". Soms helpt dat…

@Diederik: ik schaam me bijna om Nederlander te zijn als ik jouw verhaal
lees, ik ben blij dat ik ver van Amsterdam woon. Maar om je enigszins te
troosten: als ik in Amsterdam kom en Nederlands praat in een café,
restaurant of winkel, word ook ik raar aangekeken en mijn Brabantse/Bossche
accent is helemaal niet sterk. Ik krijg dan altijd de neiging om het te
overdrijven en er wel Brabants tussendoor te gooien. De hoofdstedelingen
denken toch al dat wij 'reserve'-Belgen zijn (samen met de Limburgers).

Houdoe

Jenny Kool

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (02) [E]

Hi Lowlanders, hi Diederik,

I am wondering whether the person(s) serving were actually Dutch, recently
we have been served by waiters and bar keepers in Amsterdam who weren't
Dutch and didn't speak Dutch, so it might have been one of them or
otherwise, there is a tendency among younger Dutch people to show of with
their English knowledge (while pronouncing all Vs like F as e.g. "fisible"
instead of "visible", typical Amsterdam mispronunciation in English, a
Fleming would never do that) which I think is really ridiculous. If it
happens to me that someone doesn't (want) to speak Dutch and carries on in
English I resolve it by speaking in the harshest Geordie (the dialect of
Newcastle-upon-Tyne) I know to them which they then don't understand....that
was the end of them showing of....

However, there is growing awareness that the Dutch people should continue
using Dutch whenever possible and also encouriging foreigners to learn the
language, perhaps less in Amsterdam but certainly outside the official
capital. Many of them actually regard Flemish as the nicer and more correct
way of "Dutch" and I also think the sound of it is so much softer and
polite, never give it up, Diederik! Then again, among those you often run
into disputes about the status of Frisian, Low Saxon, Zeeuws and Limburgs
because I believe they have the same rights to preserve their language and
culture as the "Dutch" have and I believe at least Frisian should be
displayed on multilingual anouncement boards in the capital as well if it is
supposed to serve as the capital of all Netherlanders.... Why not Frisian
beside English, French, Turkish, German and Arabaic, why neglecting a
crucial heritage and factor of Dutch culture? I have recently downloaded the
Frisian version of the Mozilla Firefox internet browser, that is really a
nice one, a good tool if you want to gain some knowledge of Frisian!

Gröten,
Helge
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