LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.21 (02) [E/LS]

Tue Oct 21 17:12:28 UTC 2008

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L O W L A N D S - L - 21 October 2008 - Volume 02
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.20 (08) [E]

re: Reinhard wrote: Low Saxon has *verswinnen*, *swinnen* and some dialects
also *dwinnen*, older ones *verdwynen* for 'disappear'.

Hello Heather and Ron:. Verdwijnen from dwinnen,,, OK but how about the
English to dim the lights, Dutch "dimmen" ?

And yes Heather, the particle "ver-" in front of a verb often means "
utterly/total like slapen - verslapen is to sleep-to oversleep and vallen –
vervallen is to fall – to dilapidate (if that could be a verb in English)
but kopen is to buy, verkopen is to sell.

Greetings, Jacqueline

PS. Heather, Don't you love those moles. A couple brought me back a small
silver teaspoon that my kids had taken outside to play some thirty five
years ago! For that I forgive them a couple of moles heaps. J.

PS!! RON, I hope the antibiotics are starting to work by now. There is
nothing as bad as an itch that you can't scratch. Houd je taai! J.

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.20 (10) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

Take for instance *tumble*, a frequentive derivative of Old English /tumb-/
(/tumbian/) 'to dance about'; related to German /tumelen/ > /taumeln/ 'to
reel', /tummeln/ 'to mill about', Dutch /tuimelen/ 'to tumble', Low Saxon
/tummeln/ ~ /tümmeln/ 'to mill about'. Since German has both a short and a
long variant and Dutch has one with a long vowel (u > ui), I believe that
there was no /b/ there to begin with.

As an aside, what I find interesting about this particular group is that
German has a /t-/ here rather than the expected /z-/ (ts-), which leads me
to wonder if in German we are dealing with a very early loan from Saxon or
from Early Low or Middle Franconian -- i.e. a loan that entered the language
/after/ affricatization (p > pf, t > ts, k > kx > x).

The group of words definitely has a history of loaning, but I think it is
just a Low to High loan. According to my etymological dictionary 'taumeln'
is from ie. *dheu-, *dheuə (to stir, to whirl) with m-formant. But that
would not explain why there was no affricatization (well, if West Germanic
had a front d, German would have front t, but then Low Saxon should have d
and not t). Grimm says in his entry 'tummeln/dummeln' that there are not
only forms beginning with t- but also with d-. But this forms are not found
in Low Saxon but mostly in German. Under the entry 'taumeln' Grimm connects
it with a Romance word 'tumer'. So a French loan. But then Grimm disagrees
with himself under the entry 'tummeln' and says, that Romanists believe that
the Romance word is derived from Germanic. Under the entry 'tummeln/tümmeln'
Grimm says the word is onomatopoetic in character. Perhaps that's the best
explanation. It's a onomatopoetic formation and spread to different
languages with the travelling entertainers (Gauklerwesen) as suggested by
Grimm under the entry 'taumeln'. That would also explain why the word is the
same in Low Saxon and German. Onomatopoetic words are in many cases exempt
from sound changes.

Marcus Buck

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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.21 (01) [E]

Beste Reinhard,

you wrote:

*kindle**
*I connect it with Low Saxon* Kien* and German *Kien* (> *Kienholz*)
'kindling' < 'small, split-off piece of wood'; cf. Old English *cēn*; cf. *
cīnan* 'to split' (intr.); it then underwent semantic expansion to "to
kindle" in the sense of "to light (fire)", hence "kindling" being wood for
starting fire.

Could German _zündeln_ (E 'to play with fire', LS 'pesern'/'pösern') be
another descendant of this family? Though GRIMM connects it with G 'Zunder'
(see also LS 'Tünteldous', literally E 'tinder box'), which we find in
English e.g. as 'cinder' and 'tinder'.

But I don't understand this one:

*stumble* < Germanic **stam-*; cf. "stammer", German *stumm* 'silent' <
'dumb'

Isn't _stumble_  a verbum, meaning 'stolpern' in German, in LS 'snubbeln' or
'stubbeln'??

And I have got another offer for this one:

*bramble* < Old English *bræmbel *<* bræmel *< Germanic **bræmaz* 'thorny
bush' > "broom"; cf. Dutch *braam*, Low Saxon *Braam* 'Scotch broom', Low
Saxon *Brummelbeer* ~ *Brommelbeer* ~ *Brammelbeer*, German
*Brombeere*'blackberry', Low Saxon
*Brummeldoorn* ~ *Brommeldoorn* ~ *Brammeldoorn* 'bramble'

In our region we still use LS 'Brammer', which means something like a sharp
edge, pike. This way 'Brammelbeer'' could have be arisen - in 'sharp'
difference to LS 'Stikkelbeer', G 'Stachelbeere', E 'gooseberry'(why
'goose-'???).

Allerbest; wat maokt de oll' leidige 'Rosie' ;-)?!

Jonny Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, folks.

Jonny:

*stumble* < Germanic **stam-*; cf. "stammer", German *stumm* 'silent' <
'dumb'

Isn't _stumble_  a verbum, meaning 'stolpern' in German, in LS 'snubbeln' or
'stubbeln'??

Problems talking, problems walking ... "Stumble" can also be used in the
sense of progressing in a difficult and halting manner, also to *talk* in
such a way (German *stocken*).

Jonny, *zünden* 'to ligh (fire)' is related to Old English *tendan* <
Germanic **tund-* 'to ignite' (> Gothic *tandjan*), and, indeed derived from
it, *zündeln* 'to play with fire' is another example of frequentive use, as
is Low Saxon *kokeln* for the same, supposedly from *koken* 'to make
(char)coal' (?).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: As for my malady, thanks, Jacqueline and Jonny. There's no itch, just
pain so far, and it's subsiding, and anti*viral* medication is being used.
I'm quite the sight right now, what with crud going up one side of my neck
and face (and into one ear!) and me not having shaved in five or six days
... People will be scared to death when I go out for a doctor's appointment
this afternoon.
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