LL-L "Etymology" 2009.04.06 (02) [E]

Lowlands-L List lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM
Mon Apr 6 21:37:24 UTC 2009 

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L O W L A N D S - L - 06 April 2009 - Volume 02
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: Etymology

 Beste Ron,



You wrote:

 *VEPS*

   - *bard* : beard
   cf. Kar. *parta*, *pardu*, Fin. *parta*; Ltv. *bārda*; Germanic **
   barda(z)*
   - *flag* : flag
   cf. Liv. *plagā*; Middle Saxon *vlagge > Flagg*
   - *habuk* : hawk
   cf. Kar. *haukku*, Fin. *haukka*; Germanic **habuka(z)*
   - *kana* (kan-) : chicken
   cf. Vot., Kar., Fin. *kana*, Liv. *kanā*; Germanic **hana*
   - *kuld* : gold
   cf. Kar., Fin. *kulta*, Liv. *kuldi*; Germanic **gulþa*
   - *lambaz* (lamb-) : lamb
   cf. Liv. *lāmbaz*, Vot. *lammaz*, Kar., Fin. Est. *lammas*, Est.* lamba*;
   Germanic **lamba(z)*
   - *leib* ~ *liib* : bread
   cf. Kar., Fin. *leipä*, Est. *leib*, Liv. *lēba*; Germanic
**hlaiba*(e.g. English
   *loaf*)*;* Slavonic **xl’eb”*
   - *pada* (pad-) : pot (?)
   cf. Liv. *poţa*; Ltv. *pods*; Germanic **putta*
   - *pöud* : field
   cf. Vot. *põlto*, Kar. *peldo*, Fin. *pelto*; Germanic **felþa*
   - *raud* : iron (metal) (?)
   cf. Kar. Fin. *rauta*, Vot., Est. *raud*; Germanic **lauda*
   - *runo* : poem (?)
   cf. Germanic **runō* ‘secret’, ‘(secret) counsel’, ‘letter’


*VOTIC*

   - *frovva* : lady; Mrs.
   cf. Fin. *rouva, Est. proua*; Germanic **frōwo*
   - *kana* : hen
   cf. Vot., Kar., Fin. *kana*, Liv. *kanā*; Germanic **hana*
   - *kattila* : kettle
   cf. Fin. *kattila*, Est. *katel*, Liv. *kaţļā*; Ltv. *katls*; Germanic **
   katila(z)*
   - *lammaz* : sheep
   cf. Liv. *lāmbaz*, Vep. *lambaz*, Kar., Fin. Est. *lammas*, Est.* lamba*;
   Germanic **lamba(z)*
   - *lusti* : pretty; fine (?)
   cf. Low Saxon *lustig* ‘funny’, ‘enjoyable’
   - *merkki* : mark; sign; signal
   cf.; Germanic **marka*
   - *põlto* : field
   cf. Vep. *pöud*, Kar. *peldo*, Fin. *pelto*; Germanic **felþa*
   - *püsü* : gun
   cf. Fin. *pyssy*, Est. *püss*; cf. Saxon *büks* > *büss* (rel. to “box”)
   - *rauta* : iron (?)
   cf. Kar. Fin. *rauta*, Vep., Est. *raud*; Germanic **lauda*
   - *tupa* : chamber (?)
   cf. Liv. *tubā*, Low Saxon *Stuve* ~ *Stube > Stuuv’*, Eng. *stove*;
   Germanic **stubō*


My first idea was that these loans might as well have gone back to Viking
invasions (runo, for example), but "frovva" proves this wrong I guess. The
"leib/liib" word for "bread" could also be attributed to Russian, but on the
whole I tend to think you're right assuming that Germanic (Saxon?) influence
is very likely. The loans do not all have the same age, otherwise I guess
"habuk" and "kana" would both have started with the same consonant. Which
then either means that exposure to Germanic may have extended over a
considerable period of time; or the role of Finnic as some sort of transit
language may have altered.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx



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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Luc,

Thanks for the response.

Quite so. The loans are clearly from different ages and different sources.
Furthermore, I expect that many of the Germanic loans have been passed along
among the Balto-Finnic languages and some Saxon words entered the languages
as Latvian or Scandinavian loans.

Going by migration strata, Slavonic loans would apparently have arrived
after the earliest strata of Germanic loans, and the **hlaiba* group has
been said to belong to that.

You need to bear in mind that Balto-Finnic people have been living in those
areas for a long, long time. There are still many problems with Uralic
classification in connection with other aspects of history, especially with
hypotheses regarding migration. In my opinion it is simplistic to assume
that all Uralic peoples now west of the Urals migrated there. While this
appears to be the case with the Magyars (Hungarians), the Finno-Saamic
situation appears to be more complex. I personally believe that there used
to be a continuum with the Saamic people at one time in most of what we now
call the Nordic Countries, prior to Germanic northward expansion and Finnic
westward and northward expansion, with extensive absorption of Saami people
by these communities of newcomers. (Tacitus mentions the *fenni*, which may
have been Saami or a variety of Finno-Saamic people.)

At any rate, this would have put Finnic-speaking people into direct contacts
with various early Germanic peoples. This seems to have included East
Germanic communities (most likely Goths) prior to the spread and
consolidation of Eastern and Western Slavs.



In general, the first loan words into Finno-Ugric languages seem to come
from very early Indo-European languages, and later mainly from Iranian,
Turkic, Baltic, Germanic, and Slavic languages. Furthermore, a certain group
of very basic and neutral words exists in Finnish and other Finnic languages
that are absent from other Finno-Ugric languages, but without a recognizable
etymology from any known language. These words are usually regarded as the
last remnant of the Nordic language spoken in Fennoscandia before the
arrival of the proto-Finnic language. Words included in this group are e.g.
*jänis* (hare), *musta* (black), *mäki* (hill), *saari* (island),
*suo*(swamp) and
*niemi* (cape). Also some place names, like Päijänne and Imatra, are
probably before the proto-Finnic era.

Often quoted loan examples are *kuningas* "king" and *ruhtinas* "prince,
high ranking nobleman" from Germanic **kuningaz* and **druhtinaz*, but
another example is *äiti* "mother", from Gothic *eiþai*, which is
interesting because borrowing of close-kinship vocabulary is a rare
phenomenon. The original Finnish *emo* has become a cranberry morpheme.
There are other close-kinship words that are loaned from Baltic and Germanic
languages (*morsian* "bride", *armas* "dear"). Examples of the ancient
Iranian loans are *vasara* "hammer" from Avestan *vadžra*, *vajra* and *orja
* "slave" from *arya*, *airya* "man" (the latter probably via similar
circumstances as *slave* from Slav in many European languages).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language


This makes contacts with Middle Saxon during the Hanseatic era relatively
recent events.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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