LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.04.15 10) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 15 April 2009 - Volume 10
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Lucas,

You wrote:

 I've been pondering the last few days to what extent 'stock' and 'stone'
> (in any Germanic or non-Germanic languages) are often paired together to
> create a phrase.  It started as a discussion of how Tolkien has Treebeard
> say, in the Return of the King, chapter Many Partings:  "It is long, long
> since we met by stock or by stone."  In this case I think the pair carries
> the meaning "anywhere" as well as overtones of duration.  Many believe that
> this is echoing a line in the Middle English poem "Pearl": "We meten so
> selden by stok other ston"   In Norwegian "over stokk og stein" apparently
> means "out of control".  I'm wondering then to what extent 'stock' in the
> Germanic languages (perhaps especially in W.Gmc) is an archaic word and how
> often it appears in phrases, particularly with 'stone'.
>

"Stock and stone" can be viewed as "stick and stone" in modern English. In
Old English, "stock" is another word for "tree trunk, log" and in modern
Dutch/German, "sto(c)k" can still mean "stick".
To a minor degree, the expression exists in Dutch, but it's much more
popular in German. Grimm gives this explanation:

 in besonderer beliebtheit die verbindung s t o c k  u n d  s t e i n als
> ausdruck der noch nicht gerodeten (wald)landschaft: die kaufbriefe über die
> sieden ... fertigte man daher mit den gewöhnlichen formeln aus: mit wald und
> bach, stock und stein, grund und boden, das obrist zum nidrigsten, sie
> liegen in des herzogen lande
>

Originally "stick and stone" (E), "stok en steen" (D), "stock und stein"
(G),  was the name for any untrodden area in a forest (covered with sticks
and stones). So when one had gone "über stock und stein" in order to meet
someone, it meant he/she had made a serious (unlimited) effort to find that
person. In Dutch it would be more common to say "door berg en dal", "over
hill and dale" (E).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: An alternative: In the past sticks were used to show the border of a
community whereas stones served the same purpose for the frontier of a
country. In that view, crossing sticks and stones, meant "to go a long way"
in order to achieve something. I have my doubts here, because I always
thought that major boundaries were mostly (always?) made of stone.

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From: Martha-Luise Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.04.15 (08) [E]

Hello Lucas,

in High German the term "über Stock und Stein" (= over stick (!) and stone)
means to cross the country off road. It is often used with running or
riding. I always thought "Er reitet über Stock und Stein" means that the
horseman rides through woods (Stock!) and rocky wilderness. But the meaning
"out of control" that you allude to would also make sense insome contexts.

Hartlich

Marlou
(Hamburg/Holstein)

•

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