LL-L "Names" 2009.08.05 (01) [EN]

Wed Aug 5 16:25:23 UTC 2009

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L O W L A N D S - L - 05 August 2009 - Volume 01
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2009.08.04 (02) [EN]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

re Books on Toponomy

For British names I would recommend not just the Oxford Dictionary of Place
Names ed Ekwall but also Margaret Gelling "Placenames in the Landscape"
which cleverly matches geographic drawings to their appropriate name,
revealing that each word for 'wood' or 'hill' etc described a variation of
geographic differentiation and that our ancestors were most particular about
calling any place by its correct  description.

(I know it's one of those myths but...) it's not just the Innuit that have20
different words for snow! We had 20+ words for river depending on whether it
was seasonal ( bourne), muddy ( brook) pebbly ( batch) etc etc ditto for
types of hill and woods and ridges and slopes and ............

Heather

Worcester UK
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2009.08.04 (02) [EN]

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Names" 2009.08.04 (01) [EN]
 > > from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk
 > > Can anyone recommend an authorative book(s) on the origins of North
German placename? This has really whetted my appetite!
> I guess others can do better than this:
> 1 - For local toponomy in Germany in its totality: ... etc Â¨Â¨Â¨^
> .... Further standard dictionaries and the classical encyclopedias often
have usefull information.....

1 - For Low-German places one often finds the Low-German place name in local
historical publications.

As e.g. for the "former Dutch names" of the "High-Germanized place names" in
the land of Kleve:
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/67.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/68.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/69.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/70.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/71.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/72.jpg
As you can see p.68 one finds 5 categories:
*1 - names left unchanged*
*2 - names respelled in High-German orthography*
*3 - names where the ending -ik changed into ich*
*4 - translations of the components of the name*
*5 - Four names in High German only for new settlements*: Louisendorf,
Neulouisendorf, Pfalzdorf, Reichswalde
The scan of the text above (in Dutch) comes from:
Wim en Wiro van Heugten, *"Land van Kleef",*
no date, Ieper/Mijdrecht, Zannekin, ISBN 90-71326-02-0, 192 pp.
(I bought it second hand more than 5 years ago, I guess it has been
published around 1995)

2 - About this area

The school language was changed from Dutch into High-German on order of the
Prussians in *1827-1828*
More about that in the same publication by van Heugten:
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/60.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/61.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/62.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/63.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/64.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/65.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/66.jpg
One of the elements contributing to the High-Germanization was the *immigration
by people of the Pfalz* in the South.
Since Prussia lost *East-Frisia* to *Hannover *it had to redrain the
emigration from the Pfalz to other areas, as one can read p. 139 in the same
publication under Louisendorf:
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/139.jpg

An other article by Kempen treating the language loss in Kleve:
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1104099.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1104100.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1104101.jpg
It is scanned from the magazine Ons Erfdeel, 11e jaargang, nummer 4, juni
1968

While the official language switched, the *regional dialects* somehow
survived, a sample:
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/kle35.jpg
*MeijsÃ¼tje* is *MÃ©zuu-etsje* in my West-Limburgish. (Etym -> mei + zaadje in
Dutch equivalents)
*Madeliefje *in Dutch,  *GÃ¤nseblÃ¼mchen/MaÃŸliebchen* in German, *daisy* in
English, *pÃ¢querette/marguerite-des-prÃ©s* in French

3 - The position of the Church.

While the school language switched, the pasters must have had a problem,
since the old guys were used to an other language.
Dutch was still used in church around *1967 in Emlichheim*, in the Bentheim
area more in the Nord, in as to Kempen:
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1102138.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1102139.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1102140.jpg
It is scanned from the magazine Ons Erfdeel, 11e jaargang, nummer 2,
december 1967
For Emlichheim cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emlichheim

4 - Back to "Names"

In "Ons Erfdeel" 18e jaargang, nummer 2, maart-april 1975 PÃ©e gives an
overview of "*double names" in Belgium and Northern France*.
By "double names" he means that there exist *different names in different
languages* for the site.
This does not mean that those areas are necessarily bilingual or
multilingual.
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802210.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802211.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802212.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802213.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802214.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802215.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802216.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802217.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802218.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802219.jpg
http://www.euro-support.be/tmp/kleve/e1802220.jpg
A couple of comments:
- For Belgium PÃ©e focusses on, and only, on namegiving in official
documents, as published in the law gazetter
- PÃ©e misses the namegiving in regional languages, e.g.:
  *Widooie* (Dutch name of former municipality in the South of Belgian
Limburg, now part of Tongeren)
  No official name in French
  In Limburgish:* Bedeu* (Tongeren), *Bedui *(Vliermaal)
  In walloon (Carnoy): *BidÃ´ye*
  Here Limburgish and Walloon share virtually the same name.

I stop here.
Regards,
Roger

•

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