LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.02.22 (01) [E]

Sun Feb 22 18:19:42 UTC 2009

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L O W L A N D S - L - 22 February 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.02.21 (01) [E]

 From: James Wilson <jawi2300 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.02.20 (05) [E]

Hi Paul & Heather,

Sorry Paul but I am going to use Heathers 'GRRRR..'.  Any dialect in the UK
has been viewed as lazy, working class, poor English, etc, etc.  They have
only ever been studied as dialects of English by anyone outside.  The
Northumbrian Language Society (within the area) views it differently.  Also,
as a child, I had to leave my dialect/language '...at the school gate'; as
it was viewed as something inferior to that which I will be taught, not only
English, but French, German, Latin/Classical Greek!  I have never been
bilingual in Northumbrian and English because of the reasons given here.

I do not believe that I have ever given the impression that others
*should *learn
Northumbrian.  I also fully understand the uselessness of my Northumbrian
Geordie; not only south of the Tees river but also in the rest of the world
(I have lived in Denmark for 22 years)

As to the reference of Geordie violence; I have two boys (they are Danish)
who try to imitate my Geordie and I certainly do not beat them for doing so
(as my English master did so often to those young Geordies who dared venture
from the path of righteousness ;)

Regards

James
Copenhagen

We're actually arguing on the same side here for the most part; I agree that
the attitude against bilingualism was largely imposed "from above".  But
that doesn't alter the fact that the various regional speakers don't switch
from standard to regional forms in the way that Swiss or Austrians do, yet
the prejuduce is no longer there; certainly not rigorously enforced.

But we're arguing at cross purposes as regards violent reaction to outsiders
speaking the dialect; of course you don't beat you're children for
attempting Geordie, who'd suggest you did!?? How does that relate to my
claim (which I repeat) that if *I* were to make such an attempt, I would
certainly meet with a hostile reception, quite possibly physically?

Contrast that with the experience of a friend who worked for several months
in Switzerland; he speaks pretty good standard High German, which the Swiss
initially spoke with him, but they were delighted and encouraging when he
bagan to pick up some of the local Allemannic.  I really can't see that
happening in Newcastle or Liverpool, or in Nottingham or Leicester for that
matter.

Until it does, these languages and dialects are not going to get the status
and respect they deserve, and the responsibility for that attitude lies
squarely with the people who do it, you can't blame the Nasty Masters for
everything.

Paul

Derby

England

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language diversity

Hey, Paul!

Not to contradict your basic argument, I need to add that the cases of
England and Switzerland are fundamentally different as far as I understand
them.

Switzerland is a hotchpotch of cantons, cultures and languages that banded
together as an alliance against the emerging kingdoms and empires of Europe
that gobbled up the little guys. There was no cultural and linguistic unity
to begin with, no real vision to create one, and the country more or less
worked with what it had. As far as I understand, language policies have been
up to the cantons, and the federal government in Bern merely accepts them,
though it streamlined them in the form of four official languages on the
national level. Standard German had always been perceived as sort of foreign
in Switzerland, certainly outside the larger cities. People learn it in
school, like they learn Standard French and Standard Italian, and these days
English as well. But few Swiss people speak these standard languages in
their private lives. Their native language varieties are Alemannic,
Rhaeto-Romance, Arpitan, Lombard and Swiss-specific dialects of French and
Italian. Swiss Alemannic has always been valued and treated as a
quasi-language. Many even see it as a separate language. While the education
system in the Alemannic-speaking parts uses predominantly Standard German,
it does not send children the message that Alemannic is inferior, and the
curricula allow for use of Alemannic within certain contexts. When I watch
Swiss TV I often hear more Alemannic than Standard Swiss German; while the
moderator speaks SSG, reports and interviews are largely in Alemannic, and
entertainment is often entirely in Alemannic. The other day I saw a report
about a good manners course for the children of some super-rich Swiss
people, school-age children all. It came across as rather snooty. Yet the
instructor spoke Alemannic only!

This situation cannot be compared with those in other European countries I
believe. There is no significant low prestige problem because the
governments of Switzerland never labeled Alemannic as inferior; it goes
along with the notion that it is genuinely, home-grown Swiss. Therefore,
outsiders' attempts to learn and speak Alemannic (and I have known several
of those) will usually be welcomed and applauded.

This may be a bit similar to outsiders learning West Frisian in the Northern
Netherlands. Frisians of Fryslân have told me that they expect resident
non-Frisians to make attempts to do so. Furthermore, Frisian rarely had a
low prestige problem in the region, and it is an official language in
Fryslân.

So it boils down to the matter of prestige. Low prestige is like a cancer.
It takes on a life of its own once it has been planted. Speakers themselves
will come to despise their languages and will stop to teach them to their
offspring. They will become self-conscious about their languages and
accents, and this ends up in situations in which even well-meaning outsiders
will be seen as mocking them when they try to use their languages. By
ignoring and labeling a minority language as non-permissible, as
sub-standard, as a sign of social inferiority and so forth you do plant that
cancer. In many cases this began a long time ago, and it remained untreated.
While attitudes in England and other European countries have become more
enlightened lately, the cancer that had been planted in the past is still
there, as are the sensitivities that came with it. When I mentioned Scots to
a visiting young Scotsman some time ago, he said something like, "Oh, you
mean the broad slang!"

This is my take on this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

•

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