LL-L "Language programming" 2009.01.16 (01) [E]

Fri Jan 16 14:59:53 UTC 2009

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L O W L A N D S - L - 16 January 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language programming" 2009.01.15 (05) [E]

Hi, Andrys:

Subject: LL-L "Language programming"

Mark, to my comment:

"The Jesuits say, "Give us a child until he is eight, & he will be ours
forever"

Andrys, you objected:

At that time, the notion of learning was akin to (classical or at best,
operant) conditioning.

Mark:

Well I slipped too lightly by this quote, but you picked it up smartly
enough anyhow. I don't disagree with you. I wonder if the Society of Jesus
is of a different opinion today. However this is what they expected to
follow from their methods & their expectations were generally met by
experience. I agree that in actuality, learning happens whether the object
of the exercise is subject to conditioning or not. So also for your other
points in this reguard. The brain - sorry - mind is far more flexible than
they believed and essential learning can and does occur continuously after
8. But so can brainwashing; or alternatively, what they in the old USSR
dubbed 'disinformation'; which amounts to the input of data calculated to
lead the subject to a reasonable conclusion or action based on selective or
false information. That also works.

Andrys:

Further, the Jesuits had an unshakeable belief in intelligent design,

Mark:

I agree, & concede that the concept of 'intelligent design' has irresolvable
flaws.

Mark:

Sandy, The brain *does* work *something* like a computer. it processes data.

Andrys:

I *insist* that this is so. That is why we make them, to do what we don't
have the time or leisure to do ourselves. Conceding all your objections in
the following passage, I don't disagree, you are only telling me the brain
is a less perfect instrument than the computer: In certain limited respects
(at present), true.

Andrys:

Well, mostly it doesn't work like a computer. The brain does not
generally create either stores of data organised in any kind of lineal
system, nor does it create logical algorithms or crawling retrieval
systems. As far as we know knowledge domains and schema are much more
like holistic imbroglios and retrieval is much more haphazardly dynamic.

Mark::

Andrys, you asked,

"Wouldn't recognition be an aspect of a sense of number? And vice versa?"

I don't think so. Bearing in mind your point about the holistic properties
of the brain, recognition is an Aboelian operation involving sets of 'like'
in a set of 'one' among many, whereas counting is a collation of 'unlike'
sets of 'one' from 'one' to 'enth' among many. In the former, number is not
important. Sort through a box of documents for a certain letter from your
Great-aunt Jemima. You can go through the whole box & find the letter or
not, & I hope you do, without noting the number of documents. Alternatively
you can count the number of documents without looking for, or even noticing,
any specific one. Poor Great-aunt Jemima.

Andrys:

And aren't these things always related to the observer?

Mark:

Yes, but how?

Cheers
Mark

•

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