LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.03.27 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 27 March 2009 - Volume 02
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Language varieties



Coming back to literature in Platt I found in Hamburg:

I'm a bit disappointed for that I find so little original stuff.

My best guess for the vocabulary:

- 80 percent are Hochdeutsch terms pronounced in a Platt way

- 15 percent is vocabulary shared with Dutch

- the last 5 percent may be original, but includes vocabulary linked to
certain persons, sites or events of a specific area.



- a - On p 14 in "Renate Herrmann-Winter, *Hör und Lernbuch für das
Plattdeutsche"* (Mecklenburg-Vorpommern) I read:

*"Nein, aber die **Buchstaben**, d.h. eigentlich die Laute, durch die sich
diese Wörter unterscheiden, machen den **wichtigsten Unterschied **aus
zwischen Hochdeutsch und Plattdeutsch. Das muss man bloß lernen und dann
kann man viel vom Hochdeutschen ganz leicht ins Plattdeutsche
zurückübersetzen*."

It gves the impression that it is all about *pronouncing things in a
different way*.



(This sentence may be strategically positioned though in the begining of the
book, for convincing Hochdeutsch speakers that it is not that difficult to
learn Platt)



When, taking the "family" vocabulary list p. 192 only one word sounds
original to me:

*Gör, Jör* for child.

Two have a slightly different semantics in Dutch:

*Diern* for girl (*deerne* in Dutch sounds quite negative)

*Kierl *for man, husband (*kerel *in Dutch sounds quite positive)



Curious for the isoglosses on p. 186-187 is that *Rügen* is apparently quite
distinctive from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.



- b - For Hamburg one has to take care I think.



Quoting from "Daniel Tilger, *Kleines Lexicon Hamburger Begriffe"* p. 97

*"**Missingsch **war ursprünglich eine in Hamburg ganz typisch klingende
Vermischung von Hochdeutsch mit Plattdeutsch ...etc"*



My conclusion is that one has to be carefull with classifying books in *
Hamburgisch*: They can be in Platt, in Missingisch (both qualify as
"Hamburgisch") or anything between.



- BTW I have difficulties with quoting texts in Platt. Some people use
underscores, a-rings and all kind of cedilles.



Regards,

Roger


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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Roger,

Your assessment seems pretty accurate to me.

Publications for general, non-native speaker readerships that are deemed
publishable (i.e. economically feasible) and are sold in general bookstores
are rarely of the "serious" type. They are basically for entertainment,
amusement for German speakers without much prior exposure to the language,
many of whom still believe "Platt" is a German dialect group. The Asterix
books and instructions for swearing are cases in point. They are
fundamentally for people who like to laugh about other dialects and
languages.

Those that produce such publications, if they are even competent to handle
the language, are careful not to make "Platt" (Low Saxon) seem too foreign,
too difficult to understand at first, casual reading by German speakers.
Whenever there are choices of words they will choose the ones closest to
their German equivalent, though changing the spelling/pronunciation a bit to
make it look "Platt". Most of those are German loans.*** Also, they tend to
choose words that are more entertaining, earthy, etc., words whose German
cognates sound unrefined or even rude. This adds to the entertainment value.

*Göör* for 'child' and *Keerl* ~ *Kierl* for 'man', 'husband' are cases in
point I believe. The normal words are *Kind* (pl. *Kinner*) and *Mann* (pl.
*Mannslüüd'*) respectively. *Göör* and *Keerl* ~ *Kierl* can easily sound
negative, especially *Göör* which usually has the sound of 'brat'. (However,
used carefully they can also sound affectionate.) Unless I joke or am
annoyed about them, I would not refer to children as *Göörn*. I am not aware
of *Keerl* ~ *Kierl* being used as 'husband', though some dialects may do
so. *Keerl* ~ *Kierl* tends to be used more as 'boyfriend'. If someone said
*Anna ähr Keerl* and I didn't know anything about Anna I would assume we are
talking about her boyfriend or fiancé, not about her husband, which I would
render as *Anna ähr Mann*.

And don't even get me started about orthography …!

Indeed, *Hamburgisch* can mean many things, as you have noticed.

Rather than browsing in bookstores, I recommend the on-line specialty store
Plattschapp (though I don't mean this to be commercial advertising):
http://www.plattschapp.de/

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

__________
*** Note: Of course there are many German loans (including calques) in the
Low Saxon dialects of Germany, especially those that have to do with
administration, modern technology and most types of innovations. However,
many loans have replaced native words and names as a part of
*Sprachverfall*(language decay), primarily due to exclusion of Low
Saxon from education and
the serious media. For instance, many nativized names of ethnicities and
countries have come to be replaced in many dialects, such as *Jööd'* (Jew),
*Törk* (Turk), *Sweden* (Sweden) and even *de Nedderlannen* (the
Netherlands) and *Frees'* (Frisian) which many people now refer to as *Jud'*,
*Türk*, *Schweden*, *de Niederlande* and *Fries'* if you can believe it.

•

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