LL-L "History" 2010.02.23 (08) [DE-EN]

Tue Feb 23 22:28:50 UTC 2010

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L O W L A N D S - L - 23 February 2010 - Volume 08
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.02.23 (06) [DE-EN]

From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com<Osnabryg%2BLowlands at googlemail.com>
>

 Has anybody knowledge of such early import/colonization of flemish (or
french or italian) territories by Saxon, caused by Charlemagne's
deportation?

 It interests me in the context of the controversiale issue of
"Saxon-LowFranconian dialect continuum".

The source is this sentence in the Vita Karoli Magni by Einhard:

"Nam numquam eos huiuscemodi aliquid perpetrantes inpune ferre passus est,
quin aut ipse per se ducto aut per comites suos misso exercitu perfidiam
ulcisceretur et dignam ab eis poenam exigeret, usque dum, omnibus qui
resistere solebant profligatis et in suam potestatem redactis, decem milia
hominum ex his qui utrasque ripas Albis fluminis incolebant cum uxoribus et
parvulis sublatos transtulit et huc atque illuc per Galliam et Germaniam
multimoda divisione distribuit."

In English (source:
<http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/einhard.html#Saxon%20War><http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/einhard.html#Saxon%20War>
):

"on the contrary, he never allowed their faithless behavior to go
unpunished, but either took the field against them in person, or sent his
counts with an army to wreak vengeance and exact righteous satisfaction. At
last, after conquering and subduing all who had offered resistance, he took
ten thousand of those that lived on the banks of the Elbe, and settled them,
with their wives and children, in many different bodies here and there in
Gaul and Germany."

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Beste Marcus en Joachim,

Marcus wrote:

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.02.23 (06) [DE-EN]

 From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com<Osnabryg%2BLowlands at googlemail.com>
>

Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.02.23 (05) [EN, DE]

 Colonies of Charlemagne's deported Saxon families in Flanders & ?

 Hi again, Lowlanders,

 Am 22.02.2010, 20:49, hadde ik scriewen:

Am 22.02.2010 ümme 00:02 scraif Luc Hellinckx:

Beste Joachim, You wrote:

  Osnabrügge (a place where Widukint is still alive) => Berlin-Pankow

   oops, it was a spontaneous addition to my regular footer here …

 By doing some search for this post, I came to a website which' political
and historical seriousness I cannot judge and have no time to explore. But
there's an assertion in, for which I would be interested to have
affirmations or disproof about, if someone knows somewhat about this. On
http://www.deutschland-im-mittelalter.de/karl-krieg-sachsen.php
is written:

 Wittekind ließ sich hierauf taufen, und viele tausend Sachsen folgten
seinem Beispiel freiwillig. Viele tausend andere wurden heerdenweise mit dem
Schwerte in die Flüsse getrieben, und empfingen eine wahre Nottaufe. Dies
geschah im Jahre 786. Aber erst 18 Jahre darauf, im Jahre 804, wurde es in
dem Lande ganz ruhig, denn noch immer machten die heidnischen Sachsen dem
König der Franken viel zu schaffen. Um sie leichter in Gehorsam zu erhalten,
*ließ Karl 10,000 sächsische Familien nach Flandern, Frankreich und Italien
versetzen, wodurch eine Menge deutscher Kolonien in diesen Ländern
entstanden.* In Sachsen legte er Burgen und Bischofssitze an, aus denen nach
und nach Städte wurden, wie Magdeburg, Halle, Bremen, Münster und Osnabrück.
(Accentuation by me)
 Has anybody knowledge of such early import/colonization of flemish (or
french or italian) territories by Saxon, caused by Charlemagne's
deportation?

 It interests me in the context of the controversiale issue of
"Saxon-LowFranconian dialect continuum".

I have heard about this claim too. Until now I have not come across actual
evidence that this is true. But it could be true anyways. If it is true, I
guess, we shouldn't speak about "colonies". Rather single settlements in
otherwise non-Saxon regions. Charlemagne wanted to render the Saxons
innocuous so he had no interest to create compact Saxon settlement areas. I
guess the single Saxon settlements were quite quickly assimilated.

The Belgian and (Northern) French coast had already been settled by Saxons
earlier on (litus Saxonicum back in the Roman days), so it may have been a
smooth transition for the deported Saxons. Guess they were still able to use
their native language while communicating with locals.

In a way, later on they may have (been) "reshipped" to Great-Britain. Read
more about it here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11449194/The-Flemings-Flemish-Migrations-and-Influence-2

How "Flemish" were sort of the Chinese of their day (arriving in huge
numbers...sometimes outnumbering local communities...working for the lowest
salaries)...at the same time, not only boosting trade but apparently also
often becoming prostitutes (in London).

Manchester received its first batch of Flemish weavers around the 14th
century. More importantly, there was a second influx, three centuries
later...quote:

*It is highly probable that cotton weaving was also started by these
refugees. This had been a
flourishing industry at Antwerp, a port where the necessary materials were
easily procurable from
Egypt. The beginnings in England are very obscure; but it is significant
that it began to attract
attention as an important trade in Manchester in the early part of the 17th
century and that the rise
of the manufacture in Lancashire appears to follow very closely on its
decline at Antwerp. There is
at least the considerable possibility of ascribing the development to the
immigration of refugees.
After the sack of Antwerp in 1585 we know that many of the inhabitants fled
to England, and the
same period marks a great growth in the population of Manchester.*

*
*

*
I know there's all kinds of reasons that have triggered the Industrial
Revolution. According to the author, migration could be just another one!

Kind greetings,*

*Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium*

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Not to forget many Flemings (perhaps many of them of Saxon descent) having
participated, along with Saxons, Dutchmen, Germans, etc., in the eastward
colonization of primarily Slavic and Baltic lands (in what are now Eastern
Germany, Northern Poland, Kaliningrad and the Baltic Countries), beginning
in earnest in the 11th and 12th centuries. Later there were even pockets of
Scottish immigrants among them, some perhaps also partly of Flemish descent.

The mostly Scottish and Northern English surname Fleming tells an obvious
story. A less obvious one goes with surnames like Welsh, Wells and Walsh
that stuck to many British people of Flemish descent who first migrated to
Wales and came to be considered Welsh upon arrival in England and Scotland.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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