LL-L "Etymology" 2010.10.12 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
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*L O W L A N D S - L - 12 October 2010 - Volume 02
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From: pbarrett <pbarrett at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.10.11 (02) [EN)
Fasmer (Etimologicheskii slovar' russkogo yazyka vol. II) gives "ring"
(hring) in OE & ON as the cognate of krug. Krug means circle. The
relationship of kruzhka with German Krug is cast into doubt, according to
Fasmer, by the divergence in gender (this all on p. 385).
Kruzhka is from Middle High German kruse and Middle Low German krus, which
are from Greek chrossos, meaning 'jug'.
Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
http://ideas.lang-learn.us/barrett.php
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From: pbarrett <pbarrett at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.10.11 (02) [EN)
oops. that's krossos, with a kappa, not a chi.
Pat Barrett pbarrett at cox.net
http://ideas.lang-learn.us/barrett.php
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.10.11 (02) [EN)
I'd always assumed Cruikshank was Scottish, and was basically "crooked leg",
i.e. walked with a limp. I have no real evidence for this though.
Paul
Derby
England
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From: Kirsteen Wilkes <kirsteen.wilkes at hotmail.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.10.11 (02) [EN)
Re: "The Dutch Surname Cruikschank" - this is a fairly well known name in
the British Isles and I suspected its origins to be from North of the
Border. The use of the letter "I" to denote vowel lengthening is common in
Scots......... So I googled it and unearthed the following
http://gocruickshanks.com/ and
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=CRUICKSHANK&year=1998&altyear=1881&country=GB&type=name.
The latter website is a favourite!
Kirsteen
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Paul and Kirsteen,
And I have always assumed that Cruikschank is of Dutch origin, because ...
(1) it makes perfect sense etymologically and orthographically in Dutch, and
...
(2) large-scale Dutch-speaking immigration to Britain in olden times is well
known.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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From: Utz H.Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.10.11 (02) [EN)
Moin alltohoop;
Ron schreef:
I am wondering about the Low-Saxon-derived family name Kröger. Its German
equivalent is Krüger. Both mean “innkeeper” or “publican” and are based on
words for ‘pitcher’ or ‘jug’: Low Saxon *Kroog* (plural *Kröge* > *Krög’*),
German *Krug* (plural *Krüge*). In extension, these have come to mean
‘tavern’, ‘public (drinking) house’ as well (including Low-Saxon-derived *
krogi* in Latvian).
This is analogous to Western Slavic. Originating in Eastern Germany, the
“German” surnames Kretschmar and Kretschmer are not uncommon and occur here
in North America as well. (Kretschmer is my maternal grandmother’s maiden
name, and she was clearly at least partly of Sorbian descent.) “Publican” is
*korčmar* in Modern Upper Sorbian, *kjarcmaŕ* in Lower Sorbian, and
*krčmár*in Slovak. A pub is
*krčmy* in Slovak, while the Sorbian cognates seem to be lost. However,
Eastern German (used in [formerly] Sorbian-speaking areas) still use the
Sorbian loanword *Kretschme*, the Yiddish cognate being *kretshme* (קרעטשמע,
and ‘innkeeper being *kretshmer* [קרעטשמער]) Apparently, all this goes back
to an Old Slavic cognate (**krugь*?) of the aforementioned Germanic words *
Kroog* and *Krug*. The etymology of these are not clear but may have
something to do with roundness (e.g. Slavic **krokь* ‘circle’).
Dat gifft dat ook in Poolsch:
karczma = Kroog (Wirtshaus, Schenke, Dorfschenke)
karczmarka = Krögersche (Schankwirtin, Schenkwirtin)
karczmarz = Kröger (Gastwirt, Schankwirt, Schenkwirt)
Man blots en Beerkroog is in Poolsch en "kufel".
Anners gifft dat noch in Poolsch dat Woord "stągiew" = Kroog, Kruuk (Krug,
Kruke).
Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Dank di, Utz.
poolsch *karczma* = kaschuubsch *karczma*
poolsch *karczmarka* = kaschuubsch *karczmôrka ~ kaczmôrka*
poolsch *karczmarz* = kaschuubsch *karczmôrz ~ kaczmôrz*
Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.10.11 (02) [EN)
Dear Ron, this is very interesting. I have heard elderly people who had been
expelled from Schlesien after WW II say "Wir hatten einen Kretscham". Or at
least that was what the word sounded like. What gender is that slavic word?
Der, die, das?
Is it so very clear that "Kröger/Krüger" could not also mean "Krugmacher"
(potter)? I always thought that an ambiguous word. What are the names for
potters in all these languages? Early names? In High German there is
"Töpfer", but as a family name it is rare compared to Krüger. In Platt I
never came across a name like "Pötter" or so; I think I once saw
"Krogmaker", but this can be a self deception drawn from the
Schomaker-analogy. I think there is no Platt family name derived from the
potmaking profession, or is there one? -- Now there ought to have been many
more *makers* of pots than people who kept an inn or a pub, hm? Pots easily
break and are always necessary. Therefore can it be that "Kröger" meant
potter as well -- or maybe even only potter, originally? Since there seems
to be no other name where a name surly might be expected.
Hartlich
Marlou
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Marlou,
*Kretscham* appears to be a word in Upper Silesian German, and its gender
appears to be masculine.
My grandmother (from Görlitz/Zhorjelc/Zgorzelec/Zhořelec, once the capital
of Lusatia/Łužica/Lausitz) spoke a Lower Silesian dialect of German, and in
it it was feminine *Kretschme*, as in Yiddish, as far as I remember. This
would be consistent with the Slavic donor word.
The original Slavic language of Upper Silesia is Silesian (*Ślůnski*) used
both in Poland and in adjacent areas of the Czech Republic, as well in some
localities in Texas. I have no access to a dictionary to check what “pub” is
in those dialects.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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From: Hannelore Hinz HanneHinz at t-online.de
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.10.11 (02) [EN*]*
Liebe Lowlanders,
ich denke, daß es nicht unbedingt Hinzufügungen oder Vorahnungen von
jemanden sind... mal sehen, was dabei herauskommt.
*Kraug, *-o- m. Krug, Wirtshaus; Wirtshausnamen mit dem Grundwort
-*kraug; *nach
Tieren; auf die Lage weisen; weitere Namen:* Angst- ....Winkraug; *häufig
als Flurnamen, die auf einen früheren Krug weisen; daneben im Volksmund
zahllose Phantasiebildungen wie *to 'n roden Lappen; natt Eck.*
In den Städten hatten die mittelalterlichen Handwerker-Ämter und auch die
Gesellschaften eigene Krughäuser; ein Schuster-, Schneider- und Bäckerkrug.
Bei den Krügen lag ausschließlich der Kleinvertrieb des Biers; zwischen
Brauern und Krügern bestanden feste Verhältnisse; daher die Bezeichnung
'braxantes ad tabernas' (Brauer, die für Krüge brauen; Wismar 1332.
*Kräuger, *der Wirt; *Kräugersch/en, *Wirtin.
Sprachl. Niederschlag; lat. schwach flektiert crogo, crogonis: 'de crogone
in Alden Bukowe' (1260) UB: Mecklenburgisches Urkundenbuch, Schwerin 1861
ff.; caupona 'ein Kroch' CHYTR. (Nathan Chytraeus,) Nomenclator
latino-saxonicus
denuo editus. Rostock 1613; 'vor den kroch'(1538); 'in den schuttigen, lagen
edder krogen mit worpel . . . spelen' (1580). *Sü, daar kümt ball de Kroog,
drink mit mie ehn Krooß Bier, **Kros, Krooß, Kraus: *Kanne, Krug, 'dat
kroes' Rostock; insbes. irdenes, gläsernes oder zinnernes zylindtrisches
Trinkgefäß mit Henkel, häufig auch mit Klappdeckel, irdenes Trinkseidel mit
Zinndeckel. Dim. 'Kroeseken', Kroeschen.
Redensarten: *man kann in 'n Kraug oft för 'n Schilling tau weiten krigen,
wat 'n Daler wiert is; Kirch un Kraug möt'n nich vörbigahn (vörbiführen),
dor kriggt 'n ümmer wat Gaud's tau weiten; *bildl. von einer Kegelkugel,
die, ohne zu treffen, in die Ecke rollt: *dee geiht 'n Kraug vörbi; *vom
abnehmenden Mond, der abends später aufgeht, heißt es: *nu geiht hei all tau
Kraug. *- Kraugdag m. Tag, an dem man ins Wirtshaus geht, früher bes. der
Versammlungstag mit Zechgelage der Zünfte und Gesellschaften. *Krogdag! *ruft
der Bulle den Maurern zu.
*kräugen, *-ö-, eine Krugwirtschaft betreiben: 'diewille der . . . kroger
nicht kroget' (1552); *dei Buer kräugt ok 'n bäten *hat nebenher etwas
Ausschank. *Johann Kräuger* der Karobube im Kartenspiel; *Krischan Kräuger
*die Kröte.
Kräugerie f. Krügereigewerbe, Ausschank: cauponaria 'de Kroegerye'.
*Kraugfidler *m. Wirtshausfiedler: 'Ein kroegfidler is Musicant. Kraugvadder
a. Spr. krochvader m. Wirt des Kruges eines HandwerkerAmtes, Herbergsvater
einer Gesellenherberge.
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert
DUDEN 7 Etymologie der deutschen Sprache:
*Krug: *Der aus dem *Niederd.* übernommene Ausdruck für "Schenke, Wirtshaus"
geht zurück auf gleichbedeutend *mnd. *kröch, krüch. das wahrscheinlich im
Ablaut zu *Kragen *(ursprünglich "Hals, Kehle") steht. Beachte dazu z.B. das
Verhältnis von *lat.* gurges, gurgulio "Schlund, Kehle" zu gurgustium
"Schenke, Kneipe". Im heutigen Sprachgefühl wird das Wort als identisch mit
Krug "Gefäß" empfunden.
Hm, es könnte ja sein, daß eine Berufbezeichnung Kräuger/Kroger/Kröger
(Krüger?) zu den Namen "Kröger" gekommen ist. Abwarten... (Wie ist es denn
zu Müller, Möller, Meier gekommen.)
Grüße.
Hanne
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