LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.08 (01) [EN-NDS]
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L O W L A N D S - L - 08 May 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Sandy Fleming fleemin at live.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.04.29 (03) [EN]
> From: Sandy Fleming <fleemin at live.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.04.29 (02) [EN]
>> From: Pat Barrett <pbarrett at cox.net>
>> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.04.28 (06) [EN]
>> The use of -s in other than 3rd person singular present tense verbs is a
characteristic of certain English dialects. All persons have -s.
> Memory isn't serving me too well on this but I think it's in Berkshire or
thereabouts that it's all -s. There's somewhere else (Norwich?) where there
are no present tense endings.
I've been trying to find this amongst my books. Peter Trudgill's "Dialects"
lists the East Anglian dialect (eg Norwich) as having no present tense
endings at all:
I sing
We sing
You sing
He/She/It sing
They sing
He then says that Berkshire dialects have the present tense ending for all
persons:
I sings
We sings
You sings
He/She/It sings
They sings
Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.07 (01) [EN]
Hi Ron, Nice piece of music you got there!
‘It dawned upon me’ that in Dutch a poetic way to say “This day daws” is;
“Het daget in den Oosten”. I think however that that is a pat expression.
However you can also say “ het begint my te dagen” = ‘I am beginning to see
the light’ as ‘I am starting to understand something’. So then the question
becomes were does the “n” in dawn come from.
Have a nice weekend. I am still hoping that spring finally will arrive. I am
getting fed-up with wearing Yeager underwear underneath my sweats.
Jacqueline BdJ
Seattle USA
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From: Sandy Fleming fleemin at live.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.07 (01) [EN]
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
> Dear Lowlanders,
> Having just listened to the song “This Day Daws” I am reminded that in
the Tudor era, English—passing from its Late Middle stage and entering its
Early Modern stage—retained syntactical and morphological characteristics
that continue in its sister languages till this day but are quite foreign to
the ears of today's English speakers:
> Modern: This day is dawning and I must go home.
> *Tudor: This day daws and I must home go.*
Alexander Montgomiew writes, to the tune of Tuttie Taitie (the same tune as
Scots Wha Hae):
Hey! now the day dawis;
The jolly cock crawis;
Now shroudis the shawis
Thro' Nature anon.
The thissel-cock cryis
On lovers wha lyis:
Now skaillis the skyis;
The nicht is neir gone.
And Burns writes (to the same tune!):
Landlady, coont the lawin,
The day is near the dawin,
Ye're aa blinnd drunk boys,
An I'm jolly fou.
Hey! Tuttie taitie,
Hoo! Tuttie taitie,
Hey, tuttie taitie,
Wha's fou nou?
But considering it's the same tune I suspect Burns was aware of the
Montgomerie version and my have lifted the older form from that to get his
rhyme?
The derivation of "dawn" from "dawin" looks likely.
Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.07 (01) [EN]
There has been a tendency in English to hark back to older forms for poetic
or dramatic effect, and this seems to have become quite strong in Tudor
times. Spenser's "Faerie Queen" published in the 1590s is a classic
example, and though many analysts say that the amount of archaic language is
exaggerated, it is claerly not the day-to-day speech of the late 16th C.
The King James "Authorised Version" of the Bible is another case in point;
produced in the early 17thC, it deliberately uses language that was
old-fashioned by that time to give it a sense of age and authority.
It also seems that English tolerates, even likes, non-standard word orders
in songs, especially traditionals: "A-hunting we will go!" etc. Much harder
to get any rhythm into "we'll go hunting".
Even much more recently, in the 60's, Tony Hazzard wrote the song "Ha-ha
Said the Clown" (a hit for Manfred Mann in the UK at the time). Not "The
Clown Said Ha-ha", which is normal English usage.
Paul
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.07 (01) [EN]
Hallo Ron un all' Lowlanners,
as Muskant hal ick nu deiper ut, wieldat mi Song un Wüür bannig
intressieren.
Kiekt mal in bi:
http://www.factsandarts.com/music/anon-this-day-awes/
Wat klingt dat Leed so wunnerschön, dat röögt de Harten an.
http://www.songtextemania.com/this_day_dawns_songtext_morbid_remains.html
http://www.rcmscerly.tk/fayrfax-manuscript/comment-page-1
Kiekt nah bi: '*2 Responses to 'Fayrfax Manuscript'* "This day day daws..."
Mi is upfollen, dat de Texten nich all' gliek sünd.
Un nu up Mäkelborgsch:
Diss Dag fangt an un ick möt nah Hus/Huus gahn.
Diss Dag röppt all vör Dau un Daak un ick möt nah Hus gahn.
Diss Dag waakt up un ick möt nah Hus gahn.
Diss Dag grient tiedig un ick möt nah Hus gahn.
De/diss Dag rüst' sick un ick möt nah Hus gahn.
De/diss Dag steiht up un ick möt nah Hus gahn.
Un ick bün all lang' tau Hus, von hier
mien best' Gräuten.
Hartlich.
Hanne
Man gaud, ick bün all tau Hus,
un von hier best' Gräuten.
Hartlich.
Hanne
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar
Thanks, everybody!
Hanne, thanks for the links! Tthe lyrics of the second link are those of a
different, more recently written song.
So it turns out that it is not "go" but "gone":
This day day daws,
This gentill day day dawes,
This gentill day dawes,
And I must home gone.
In a glorius garden grene
Sawe I syttyng a comly quene
Among the flouris that fressh byn.
She gaderd a floure and set betwene;
The lyly-whighte rose methought I sawe,
The lyly-whighte rose methought I sawe
And ever she sang:
In that garden be flouris of hewe:
The gelofir gent, that she well knewe;
The Floure-de-luce she did on rewe,
And said, "The white rose is most trewe
This garden to rule be ryghtwis lawe."
The lyly-whighte rose methought I sawe,
And evyr she sang.
So this "And I must home gone" is more similar to modern "I must be gone."
http://www.factsandarts.com/music/anon-this-day-awes/
The singers use period pronunciation; e.g. "dawes" [daʊz], "gone" [gɔːn],
"sawes" [saʊz], "methought" [meˈθɔʊxt].
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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