LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.21 (01) [EN-NDS-NL]
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L O W L A N D S - L - 21 May 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.20 (05) [EN]
Am 21.05.11 00:05, schrieb Reinhard/Ron:
But you need to distinguish between "true" /g/ and epenthetic [g].
Epenthetic [g] occurs a lot in dialects of Mecklenburg. See for instance
Hanne's translation: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/mekelnborgsch.php .
There is the word *reigenweg* 'totally', which in other dialects is *reinweg
*, based on the German loanword *rein* 'clean', 'pure(ly)' > Low Saxon
'totally', 'altogether', 'absolutely'.
Hi best Reinhard,
indeed, it seems to occur extremely often in Meck-Pom Plat, possibly because
of Westphalian and Flemish, Brabants influence, maybe "verselbständigt" or
independent.
But, in my first view, in *reigenweg* instead of *reinweg* we have the same
Hiattilgung (hiatus deletion) as in your's, Luc's and mine erstwhile
examples, isn't it? Nontheless there is a difference: The Meck-Pom "rein" is
[rain] and as such possibly a High German loan (Low Saxon "reen, reyn") and
a simple diphthong thereover. But on the other hand we have "reggen" as
usual alternative for "reen" in Westphalian, too. And think about your own
forename, Reginhart …
They are all one sort of Epenthesis (meaning "addition of one or more sounds
to a word, especially to the interior of a word"), therefore of course no
"true" /g/ or whatever other consonant (vowels in other cases).
I agree if you say that all these consonants mentioned aren't original but
"epenthetic". But please explain me, if you wanted to state that e. g. the
/g/ in one of my exemples or the /g/ in your example
*blau* ~ *blag'* (Dutch spelling *blauw* ~ *blaog*', IPA [blaˑʊ] ~ [blɒːˑɣ])
'blue'
were "true", but some others epenthetic (additional). And what were the
difference?
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow
--------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology
Good points, Joachim. See also Marcus below.
But also remember that Hanne's dialect is an [aˑɪ] and [aˑʊ] dialect (e.g.,
*Bein*, *Bauk*) as opposed to [ɛˑɪ] and [ɔˑʊ] dialects (e.g., *Been*, *Book*)
for the same respective phonemes.
Reginhart …
Raginhart, I thought.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA
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From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.19 (04) [NDS]
Up 20 mey 1911 21:35 scraif Joachim:
*
Jedenvals is dat de endgüllige bewiis, dat dat Laaglandske 'w' in't
algemeyne half as miieklinker (as halfvokaal) uutsproken word un dat heyt:
met nadering van beyde lippen (bilabial-apprximativ).
*
Zo'n unzin. "half as miieklinker", nee nee, dit solde heten "half as
klinker (as halfvokaal)". Natüürlik ouk "appr* o* ximativ", naderend.
Man dat hewwet ji vermoudelik al erkent.
--
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.21 (01) [EN]
It's called *yogh*; it was used for the now silent sounds in thought,
bought etc. OE had the sound, but just used an "h": cniht, niht etc. It
faded with printing as it was an extra piece needed when "gh" was close
enough (there it is again!), and it was beginning ti disappear as a sound
inSouthern England by Caxton's time.
There is an interesting hangover of *yogh* in the Scottish name Menzies,
often pronounced "Mingus", especially as a first name - politician Sir
Menzies Campbell for example. The "z" was actually a *yogh* in earlier
times.
Paul
Derby
England
----------
From: Marcus Buck list at marcusbuck.org
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.19 (03) [EN-NDS]
Am 20.05.11 06:14, schrieb Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium:
Het is zeker geen "typo"...ik bedoelde wel degelijk dat een "w"
soms "t" wordt in bepaalde Brabantse woorden...maar niet alleen in Brabants
by the way:
new (E) = nieuw (D) = nuut (B) ... compare with Swedish "Gott Nytt År" for
"Good New Year"
blue (E) = blauw (D) = blaat (B) ...
Sometimes also: raw (E) = r(a)uw (D) = raat (B), but also rää (B)
I forgot to mention that "w" even sometimes turns into "g" when at the back
of a word:
mellow (E) = murw (D) = mörg (B) (said of food that is ready to eat, also
meaning "drunk")
I do not think that the final "t" is a result of sound shift from
"w" to "t". I rather think it's the same word with a different morphological
affix. In my native dialect of Low Saxon we have both the words "nee" and
"neet".
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
But you need to distinguish between "true" /g/ and epenthetic [g].
Epenthetic [g] occurs a lot in dialects of Mecklenburg. See for instance
Hanne's translation: http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/mekelnborgsch.php .
There is the word *reigenweg* 'totally', which in other dialects is *reinweg
*, based on the German loanword *rein* 'clean', 'pure(ly)' > Low Saxon
'totally', 'altogether', 'absolutely'.
"rein" is not a German loan. It's a normal Low Saxon word. The
"ei" diphthong that makes you think it's a loan is the normal expected
result of the original Old Saxon "hraini". The Old Saxon diphthog "ai"
changed to monophthongic "ee" in Modern Low Saxon but the word-final "i"
triggers Umlaut and that's the reason why the modern word has "ei".
Marcus Buck
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