LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.21 (04) [EN-NDS]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 21 May 2011 - Volume 04
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From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.22 (01) [EN]

Am 21.05.11 18:16, schrieb Marcus Buck:

"rein" is not a German loan. It's a normal Low Saxon word.

I agree. ODutch/OSaxon *and* OHiG *rēni*, Gothic *hrains*. I only suspected
that the Meck-Pom prononciation [ai] could be taken over from New High
German.

The "ei" diphthong that makes you think it's a loan is the normal expected
result of the original Old Saxon "hraini". The Old Saxon diphthog "ai"
changed to monophthongic "ee" in Modern Low Saxon but the word-final "i"
triggers Umlaut and that's the reason why the modern word has "ei".


I agree with the Umlautung and/or i-diphthongization because of the "i" in
the formerly following syllable. But: do you mean *[ai] or [ei/ɛi]*? If the
latter, I have no question. If the first [ai, rain, raigen], I would ask you
why this is to expect.

In High German this, the [ai] for [ei/ɛi], was part of the New High German
vocal shift, in so far also "to expect", although I don't know the reasons
for the changes neither from Gothic [ai] to Lowlandish/OHiGerm [e:/ei] nor
for that from Middel Lowlandish/Middel High German [e:/ei] to Modern HiGerm
[ai]. As far as I tried to study it, I only got the rather general answer,
that long vowels tend to be diphthongized.

Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries, Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow


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From: Hellinckx Luc luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Phonology"

Beste Marcus,

You wrote:

 Am 20.05.11 06:14, schrieb Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium:

           Het is zeker geen "typo"...ik bedoelde wel degelijk dat een "w"
soms "t" wordt in bepaalde Brabantse woorden...maar niet alleen in Brabants
by the way:

 new (E) = nieuw (D) = nuut (B) ... compare with Swedish "Gott Nytt År" for
"Good New Year"
 blue (E) = blauw (D) = blaat (B) ...
Sometimes also: raw (E) = r(a)uw (D) = raat (B), but also rää (B)

 I forgot to mention that "w" even sometimes turns into "g" when at the back
of a word:

 mellow (E) = murw (D) = mörg (B) (said of food that is ready to eat, also
meaning "drunk")

          I do not think that the final "t" is a result of sound shift from
"w" to "t". I rather think it's the same word with a different morphological
affix. In my native dialect of Low Saxon we have both the words "nee" and
"neet".


It may also be a case of analogy. "Old" and "new" are words that often come
as a pair...maybe hence: "ååt en nüüt" (B), both ending on "t".
However, that explanation fails in the case of "blue" (E) > "blaat" (B),
'cause we have an expression here: "iemand graat en blaat slàgen",
litterally, "to beat somebody gray and blue". If it would have been for
analogy we might as well have said "iemand graa(f) en blaa(f) slàgen", which
we don't...both words get a "t" in the end.

This makes me think of a so called paragogic "t", consider for example:

"iemand, jemand" = "ie-man" + t
"arend" (D for eagle) = "aern" + t
"burcht" (D for borough) = "burg" + t
"schölft" (B for hayloft, ~ shelf (E)) = "schelf" + t

A paragogic "t" is mostly used with nouns however.

Last, but maybe most likely, explanation could be that the formation evolved
somewhat along the same lines as "groente" (D for vegetables, Gemüse) <
edible green plants. "Groente" functions as a collective noun in this case.
The same may have happened to "blauwte", as a collective noun for all things
blue or a name for the color blue itself, not for the property of being
blue.

Then again, funny that other colors didn't follow suit. Sure, main colors
already had t/d at the back: "wüt", "zwät", "roeët"...but "yellow" for
example would perfectly fit to become "ge(e)lt"...which it didn't. Maybe
interference with "geld" (money) stopped this evolution. Who knows?

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.21 (01) [EN-NDS-NL]

Leiw' Lowlanners,

ick will man leiwer nahkamen Wüür verkloren (hemm' de Lütten so
*reigenweg *allein
laten):

rei(g)enweg: ok (auch), so as de Jungen de Reig' nah ut't Ei krapen sünd

reinweg, reinemang: völlig, gänzlich

rein: rein *wi hebben rein Disch äten *alles aufgegessen; *dat is rein tau
dull;  de is rein acht Johr olt,*

rein  hett nicks mit Rägen [rain] tau daun.

Apropos, ein *Diphthong*  ward nich so snackt as hei schräwen is, dat deden
woll blot  de Ostpreußen, taun Bispill:  das Ei, das jälbe/jalbe von das
Ee-i.  Richtig: Ei : *ae*.

Schönen Sünndag.

Hanne

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