[Lowlands-l] Is the list alive? Here is a linguist question!

[Lowlands Languages & Cultures]

Marcel, no I was actually saying that the German word Pünte in the first
post in this series was of Latin origin (whether direct or indirect)

"Path", etc is definitely NOT ... though COULD be, as you suggest, of
Iranian origin (though I am slightly skeptical , but only on historical, as
well as linguistic grounds... although the Goths definitely would have had
dealings (linguistic and other) with the "Scythians" (Alans, Sarmatians,
etc), they were almost certainly an intrusion in the Crimean area, and so
this would not explain how the CORE of Germanic languages got these words.
A lot depends on absolute chronology (while we linguists are pretty good at
determining relative chronology, absolute chronology is a bit beyond our
professional competence). And if we are talking about a relative late
contact (such as when the various Iranic groups who accompanied the 5th
century movement of peoples), then think (just based on my knowledge of
Ossetian) that the initial *P- of Avestan would no longer have been such,
but rather *f-

A lot of my skepticism is also based on ignorance... while Iranic
borrowings in Slavic languages are well attested and (relative) numerous,
is the same true for Iranic borrowings in Germanic? (if you have that info,
please share).

(An alternative possibility -- though in my view much less likely -- is a
Slavic origin. Historically this is not a problem: contact between the
Slavs and Germans goes back a couple millenia at least; attested borrowing
from Slavic into Germanic are also numerous (as too borrowings in the other
direction). And depending on dialect, we have both Slavic dialects with
nasal and without nasal in the word for "path" (on the western front, we
have Polish with nasals to this day and Czech without nasals.)


On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 1:55 AM, Lowlands Languages & Cultures <
lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:

> Hi Marlou,
>
> I am sorry for the confusion! My reply was also an answer to Michael
> Morgan's message.
>
> There, if I am not mistaken, he proposes that our 'path word' may be of
> Latin origin, while acknowledging that this origin does not account for the
> loss of _n_ in Latin _pons_ acc. pons, acc. _pontem_, etc. A Slavic
> origin would account for the it, but this in turn would yield some semantic
> problems. So I proposed the Eastern Iranian origin.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Marcel.
>
>
>
>
> Op 18 jul. 2017 9:04 p.m. schreef "Lowlands Languages & Cultures" <
> lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>
> "This explains the loss of the nasal." -- I'm sorry for being so
> ignorant, dear Marcel, but where is a nasal in any of these words? I am
> just trying to understand...
>
> Hartlich
>
> Marlou
>
> Am 18.07.2017 um 14:52 schrieb Lowlands Languages & Cultures:
>
> Good afternoon, all, Michael,
>
> Indeed, High German _Pfad_, Dutch _pad_, and English _path_ did not enter
> these languages through the normal *path*. According to my tutor Michael de
> Vaan it entered the Germanic languages through an Eastern Iranian language,
> and not through Latin.
>
> It must have entered the Germanic languages after Grimm's Law turned PIE
> p- into f-, otherwise we would have had English *fath and Dutch *vad.
> Cf. Old Avestan _patha_ 'way'. This explains the loss of the nasal.
>
> The European plains have had visits from several Eastern Iranian tribes
> such as the Sarmatians, who were dwelling in the Pontic steppe through
> which they had access to these plains.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Marcel.
>
> Op 18 jul. 2017 8:11 a.m. schreef "Lowlands Languages & Cultures" <
> lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>
> to put it into wider-than-Germanic perspective, the word is definitely
> Indo-European: cf Russian  путь, Old Church Slavoinc пѫть, Sanskrit पथः,
> and English path, Anglo-Saxon pæþ, Dutch pad, and German Pfad, all with
> basically the same meaning path, way, course, route. Indo-European would
> have been *panthis. And the common link with Latin pons, acc. pontem, etc
> would indicate maybe an even more basic meaning of the rood "how to get
> from here to there"
>
> And, matching well with what Marcel said above about (High) German words
> starting in *p, IE roots in *p- do not normally give German words in in *p
> (ratehr, like Pfad, they give words in *pf-), indicating that, although
> common Indo-European, and with Germanic cognates, the German*p words got
> into German not by the normal path (excuse the pun) but through borrowing
> (in this case no doubt from Latin, though it could conceivably come form
> Low German... though the nasal would tend to indicate Latin not Low German.
> If the loan were very very early, then Slavic might also conceivably be a
> source, but given the sense of the word, this seems unlikely)
>
>
> Dr Michael W Morgan
> mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || માઈક || মাঈক || மாஈக ||  مایک ||мика ||
> 戊流岸マイク
> sign language linguist / linguistic typologist / Deaf education consultant
> "Have language, will travel"
> =====================================
> "People who are always looking down at the bottom line will always fail to
> see the stars"
>
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-- 
Dr Michael W Morgan
mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || માઈક || মাঈক || மாஈக ||  مایک ||мика ||
戊流岸マイク
sign language linguist / linguistic typologist / Deaf education consultant
"Have language, will travel"
=====================================
"People who are always looking down at the bottom line will always fail to
see the stars"
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