[Aztlan] Ball game question

Mon Apr 13 19:56:13 UTC 2009

Dear Pedro,

   Frank is right about the root for "tlachco" being <tlach> -- that's 
implied in my notation in a prior message: "tlach(tli)".  Sometimes I 
forget to repeat that I refer to noun stems in Nahuatl with their 
absolutive suffixes attached -- I think that makes them more quickly 
recognizable.  On the other hand, "tlachtli" has no linguistic relation 
to 'rubber'.  Further, roots don't 'produce' words with another meaning 
by the addition of the absolutive suffix.

   With regard to the claimed relationship between "tlachia" and 
"chia", there are two schools of thought.  "Chia" means 'wait for' and 
some people believe that the "tla-" prefix fused onto it, producing an 
intransitive stem: "tlachia" ('to look, gaze). Some other people 
believe that "chia" and "tlachia" are simply independent stems/roots.
   In any case, "chia" has nothing to do with 'to make' -- that's the 
job of "chihua" (where there is a /w/ in the  i_a  slot).  Actually, 
when I say 'nothing to do with', that's not fair to the dialect of 
Nahuatl spoken along the coast in Michoacan -- it has forms of <chiwa / 
chihua> in which there is homophony with forms of <chia>.

   Your remark about "tlachiaya" and "coa" / "cohua" points to a need 
to clarify what is going on with "ia" vs. "iya" and "oa" vs. "ohua".  
In both "older" Nahuatl and in modern Nahuatl, there is no phonetic 
(i.e., pronunciation) distinction between these pairs.  In the well 
known modern dialects and in the Nahuatl contained in the works of 
Molina and Sahagun, "y" is deleted after "i" when another vowel 
follows, just as "w" (spelled "hu") is deleted after "o" when another 
vowel follows.  On the other hand, some dialect *insert* "y" after "i" 
and "w" ("hu") after "o" in these sequences.
   So it seem that sequences like "ia" and "iya" (like "oa" and "ohua") 
cannot be distinguished...?  But it *is* possible if we look at the 
variable behavior of relevant stems:

   nitlachia  I gaze         ninihtotia    I dance
  onitlachix  I gazed        oninihtotih   I danced

   niccoa     I buy it       nitlahcuiloa  I write
  oniccouh    I bought it   onitlahcuiloh  I wrote

   The appearance of final "x" ("sh") and "uh" ("w") in "chia" and 
"cohua" betrays the presence of a "y" and "w", respectively, in 
"tlachia" and "coa", whereas "ihtotia" and "tlahcuiloa" behave 
otherwise, simple dropping their "a" and adding "-h".  In other words, 
"ihtotia" and "tlahcuiloa" really do end in a sequence of two vowels, 
but "tlachia" and "niccoa" have a surreptitious consonant before their 
final vowel!!

All the best,

Joe

p.s.  I brought our discussion back to Nahuat-l, since I thought it was 
of general interest.

Dear Professor Campbell

I spoke to my nawatl teacher Frank Diaz, the root for Tlachko is Tlach, it
produces the noun Tlachtli "Rubber" , in the other hand the word Tlachia
observe comes form the word Chia to make and when we add Tla as an
acentuation is tranformed to Tlachia observe, to see with atention.
Tlachiaya is a derivation like koa produces kowa in certain areas.

good day

Pedro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Campbell, R. Joe" <campbel at indiana.edu>
To: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>
Cc: "Pedro de Eguiluz" <temazkal at mexicoantiguo.org>;
<aztlan at lists.famsi.org>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Ball game question

>  Further, the verb "tlachiya" (or, in its frequent spelling, "tlachia") is
> not related to the noun "tlachtli".  Word pieces are assumed to be the
> 'same' piece (morphemes) when they share enough in both form (phonological
> composition) and content (meaning).  A proposed relationship should also
> be credible within observed formal variations of both members of a
> morpheme.
>
>  "tlachiya" never loses enough of its basic shape to allow us to identify
> it with "tlach(tli)".  While it *does* lose the /y/ segment in most
> Nahuatl dialects (after /i/ -- just as /w/ is lost after /o/) and the /a/
> sometimes lost, the /i/ is never lost (i.e., the stem never shortens to
> "tlach...".
> The fact that "tlachiya" actually *does* have an underlying /y/ is obvious
> in the preterite where the /y/ shows up as 'x' "(o)nitlachix" 'I saw' and
> the nominal derivation "tlachixqui" 'sentinel', where the /y/ undergoes a
> general syllable-final change to 'x' (pronounced sh).
>
>  This fact about the form of "tlachiya" is fatal to its proposed
> relationship with "tlachtli", but on the semantic/content side, it would
> also fail.  Where could we find evidence for the relationship between
> 'seeing' and 'contest'?
> Obviously, in modern cultures, 'spectators' are tightly associated with
> 'games'.
> There wouldn't be nearly as many contestants as there are in all our
> modern contests if the pool of spectators disappeared.  But that's not the
> point --
> the question is whether we can identify a relationship between 'seeing'
> and 'contest' in the community where "tlachiya" might have given rise to
> "tlachtli'.
>
> Iztayohmeh,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> Quoting "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at potsdam.edu>:
>
>> You have the words somewhat reversed:
>>
>> Tlachtli is the ball game
>>
>> Tlachco is the place where it is played.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pedro de Eguiluz wrote:
>>> Ball Game in classic nawatl is Tlachko, in the middle of
>>> Tenochtitlan there was one called Teotlachko "Divine Game court".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One of the clues that lead us to the origins of this game being
>>> astronomic observation, comes from the verbal form of the word
>>> Tlachtli "Ball game", Tlachia "Observe, see". It was used to say
>>> Ilwikakpa nitlachia "I look at the sky". "Observation post" was
>>> Tlachialoyan.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pedro
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *****************************
>> John F. Schwaller
>> President
>> SUNY - Potsdam
>> 44 Pierrepont Ave.
>> Potsdam, NY  13676
>> Tel. 315-267-2100
>> FAX 315-267-2496
>>
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>
>
>
>

----- End forwarded message -----

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