ihcequi doing it?s applicative thing
Clayton, Mary L.
clayton at indiana.edu
Wed Nov 2 18:33:49 UTC 2011
Hello All,
Vitecqui appears as a Nahuatl equivalent of Herido in Molina 1555
folio 138v and in the first half of 1571 folio 70v2.
Mary
Quoting Jonathan Amith <jdanahuatl at gmail.com>:
> Hi,
>
> I couldn't find uitecqui in my version of Molina. Rémi Siméon has uitecqui
> as "golpeado, fustigado, corregido, castigado" and has uitequi as a
> transitive.
>
> There are some transitives nominalized without object slots filled by a
> nonreferential (te:-, tla-, ne-), though perhaps there are other analyses.
>
> Thus ti:tlantli (cf. ti:tlani; though the passive would seem to be ti:tlano
> and an alternative is ti:tlanoni 'mensajero').
>
> Also ichtecqui "ladrón", which may follow a pattern of wi:tequi. RS lists
> ichtequi as both intransitive and transitive. Note RS's applicative form,
> used reflexively as 'convertirse en ladrón'.
> There are other verbs that have unusual transitivity patterns, e.g, mati.
>
> best, jonathan
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:01 PM, SASAKI Mitsuya <
> hawatari21centuries at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jonathan,
>>
>> Thanks. Your point made me realize that I was quite unconscious about the
>> difference between the two, the anticausative and the agentless passive.
>>
>> Among the various kinds of V1/V2 relations you illustrated, the relation
>> between ihseki(Vt)/ihseki(Vi) looks similar to, as you noted, those in the
>> Balsas examples of TLA-less intransitivization, with backgrounded (perhaps
>> culturally specified) agent.
>>
>> Maybe corresponding to this, Molina's dictionary has hui:tecqui "one who
>> beats" (from hui:tequi "to beat, azotar") for the translation of "herido",
>> as if hui:tequi were an intransitive verb "to be beaten", but I'm not sure
>> if I can say this is another example of ihcequi-type V1/V2 alternation.
>>
>>
>> Mitsuya SASAKI
>> The Department of Linguistics, the University of Tokyo
>> ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.**jp <ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
>>
>> (As for me I should confess that I've only dealt with Classical Nahuatl
>> data so far, and now am trying to get in touch with a modern speaker...)
>>
>>
>> (2011/11/02 22:50), Jonathan Amith wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Mitsuya (is that correct),
>>>
>>> What is your area of study. I'm sort of disconnected. In central
>>> Guerrero there is a lot of relexification but the morphosyntax is not as
>>> affected. In the Sierra Norte de Puebla there is a type of language
>>> ideology of purity that leads to all sorts of calques and invented
>>> terms. Thus from Spanish "me sale" (it turns out for me, as in "no me
>>> sale", it doesn't give me results) SNP has ne:chki:sa ! Likewise yowi is
>>> "transitivized" as ne:chyahki "me fue" as in "me fue bien") and tikwi is
>>> reflexively marked though an intransitive motikwi a calque from Spanish
>>> "se prende". These are all quite old. In Guerrero young kids start to
>>> say "nimoto:ka:" verbal morphology on the noun stem to:ka:- for 'me
>>> llamo'. In SNP they say nimono:tsa.
>>>
>>> Likewise tla-/ta- is being used differently. Young kids in Oapan say
>>> tlakiawi (maybe a little different than kiawi indicating a place that
>>> has a lot of rain rather than the event itself) and tlamomowi 'to be
>>> scared (in a place). In SNP one finds mono:tsa 'it is called (person,
>>> object) and motano:tsa 'it is called (a place such as a village)'.
>>>
>>> Reflexively marked bodily function verbs in SNP that beging with ihC
>>> retain or lose the /o/ of the reflexive depending on the nature of the
>>> event
>>>
>>> ihso:ta (never expressed without an object)
>>>
>>> mihso:ta 'to throw up'
>>>
>>> moihso:ta 'to throw up on oneself'
>>>
>>> kihso:ta 'to throw up [e.g., blood]
>>>
>>> kihso:ta 'to throw up on [e.g., a person]
>>>
>>> Verbs that are V1/V2 with no morphological change show a lot of
>>> different types of relations
>>>
>>> ahsi (V1) vs. ahsi (V2) are quite different 'to arrive (there) [vs.
>>> ehko] and 'to catch' (an object thrown, a prisoner fleeing)
>>>
>>> posteki (V1) vs. posteki (V2) 'to break' (sth long and brittle, like a
>>> rod or tree branch) can be a real intransitive with a patientive S of V1
>>> but no implied agentivity, i.e., sth can just break with no volitional
>>> agentivity. This is what Dixon in his book on valency change refers to
>>> as ambitransitive.
>>>
>>> Balsas:
>>>
>>> to:ka (V1) vs. -to:ka (V2) the 'intransitive 'to:ka' has a culturally
>>> specified meaning of 'to plant maize' and in Balsas can never take tla-
>>> (but can take te:- with the sense of 'to bury'). In SNP one has tato:ka
>>> with the meaning of 'to plant maize'. In Balsas then, absence of tla-
>>> is culturally specific. Tuggy has talked about tla- as culturally
>>> specified object (e.g., in Balsas o:tlapilo:to is understood outside of
>>> any defining context as 'he went to fish (hanging lines from stakes in
>>> the river) and there is some literature on the culturally specific
>>> meaning of these types of "antipassives" Thus English 'I am eating' has
>>> a culturally specified meaning of "a meal"
>>>
>>> ihseki (V1) vs. ihseki (V2) this is more the case, as you note, of an
>>> implied agent. In Nahuatl agents of passives can never be expressed
>>> obliquely (whereas objects of antipassives can be! at least in Balsas,
>>> with ika). So I am not sure whether one is best to characterize this an
>>> an anticausative or an agentless passive. Any thoughts? It is different
>>> from the case in posteki as ihseki can never occur without human
>>> intervention. In a way it is like SNP chi:wi though without the
>>> morphological derivation.
>>>
>>> Amberber in the book by Dixon and Aikhenvald notes, p. 315: "If an event
>>> encoded by a transitive predicate can be conceptualized as taking place
>>> without the intervention of an external causer, the event can be cast in
>>> the anticausative" Since ihseki cannot occur in this manner, then
>>> perhaps your use of anticausative is different than that implied by
>>> Amberber (and Levin and Rappaport, whom he cites).
>>>
>>> Cf. notsakwa in Balsas. It can be passive or anticausative
>>>
>>> niman notsakwas ka:mpa o:timotek 'the place/cut where you cut yourself
>>> will heal (close up) rapidly' No agent
>>>
>>> ma notsakwa 'let it be closed' (a door, e.g, a group of people is
>>> leaving and I say ma notsakwa as a suggestion about the door or window
>>> but without an overtly expressed agent)
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 10:19 AM, SASAKI Mitsuya
>>> <hawatari21centuries at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:hawatari21centuries@**gmail.com<hawatari21centuries at gmail.com>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> Es increíble qué rápido encuentras los buenos ejemplos.
>>> Entonces, quizás podemos decir que ihcequi tenía dos estructuras
>>> argumentales distintas. No sabía que este tema era tan interesante.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mitsuya SASAKI
>>> The Department of Linguistics, the University of Tokyo
>>> ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac._**_jp
>>>
>>> <mailto:ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-**tokyo.ac.jp<ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> (2011/11/01 22:38), John Sullivan wrote:
>>>
>>> Piyali Mitsuya,
>>> Efectivamente, ihcequi tiene una forma tanto
>>> intransitiva [ihcequi (ihcequi). it toasts, it
>>> roasts.<ihcequi>. b.11 f.14 p.142|)] como transitiva [ihcequi ,
>>> qu- (qu-ihcequi). they roast it; they toast it.<p33- ihcequi>.
>>> b.2 f.7 p.127|].
>>> Y sí, ¡qué chido!
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Nov 1, 2011, at 7:55 AM, SASAKI Mitsuya wrote:
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the comment and the data.
>>> Now the only remaining problem with this construal is that
>>> we have to assume two "ihcequi"'s, intransitive and
>>> transitive, like "ahci(vt/vi)".
>>> Que chida academia!
>>>
>>> Mitsuya SASAKI
>>> The Department of Linguistics, the University of Tokyo
>>> ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac._**_jp
>>>
>>> <mailto:ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-**tokyo.ac.jp<ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> (2011/11/01 11:50), John Sullivan wrote:
>>>
>>> Ok Mitsuya and demás listeros,
>>> Half of the temporarily constituted and soon to
>>> be dissolved Nahuatl morphology academy here at Notre
>>> Dame thinks that perhaps:
>>> 1. te-, ?non-specific human object? + ihcequi
>>> (intransitive), ?corn toasts or is toasted? + -ia
>>> (applicative) + -ya (imperfect tense suffix) =
>>> teihcequiaya, ?corn was toasted for people?
>>> 2. qui, ?3rd person singular specific object? + ihcequi
>>> (transitive), ?to toast something? + ya, (imperfect
>>> tense suffix) = quihcequiya, ?she was toasting it?
>>> and the other half is reluctant to make a commitment to
>>> a firm decision on the matter.
>>> John
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