plastic bags

[Charlotte Douglas]

In view of  this morning's discussion, perhaps I should have asked for the
Russian translation of plastic bags in Kemin, Kyrgyzstan -- that's where
they actually are going!

Charlotte Douglas (douglas at nyu.edu)




>Sorry. I have not been able to access my e-mail for a week, and could not
>reply earlier.
>A problem with "kulek," or anything else to for that matter, is not with
>the answer but with the question.
>We all know that to come up with a correct translation, we need to know at
>least the following three parameters, three dimensions of any word usage:
>space/time/social group. So, we have to answer the three questions:
>1) where?
>2) when?
>3) who is speaking?
>
>So, we have to take into account this space-time-social dynamics.
>As a result, "kulek" can be used now in Moscow on a farm market by a
>flower seller from the Caucasus.
>I do not think that it is feasible to come up with such a 3-dimensional
>map of a significant corpus of the Russian language at this time.
>So, by the necessity, we have to restrict our discussion by the so-called
>standard usage.
>Unless we have a specific need to use different settings, the default
>settings for the Russian language (standard Russian) are assumed to be:
>1) Space is restricted by the Moscow region;
>2) Time is the present time;
>3) Social group is a group of sufficiently educated people.
>
>I think that it is not a very good idea to rely on the dynamics of usage
>of a similar word in a different language.
>If in German, for example, "Tu"te" has expanded its meaning to cover
>plastic bags, then one should refrain to conclude that a
>correct translation of this word into another language (for a certain
>space, time and a social group) has a similar evolution.
>I guess that the very word "kulek" gradually disappears from standard
>Russian along with disappearance of this type of containers.
>However, one could hear it in its new meaning when the default settings
>are no longer valid.
>Unfortunately, the dictionaries are not perfect for the purpose of a
>correct translation, and the only satisfactory approach is to probe a
>group of informers from a particular social group from the area in mind
>who live (or lived if we are interested in translation into a certain past
>time) there. I understand that quite often this luxury is not possible but
>this is what we really need.
>
>It is fortunately quite easy to  help you with "cashier's cheque."
>In Russian, it is "bankovskiy chek," or just a "chek," exactly like in
>supermarkets. As you well know, it is not the only case of multiple
>meanings for the same spelling.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Edward Dumanis <dumanis at acsu.buffalo.edu>
>
>
>On Tue, 17 Jul 2001, AHetzer wrote:
>
>> Edward M Dumanis schrieb:
>> >
>> > However, in the Moscow
>> > region, it would mean only a special type of conic-shaped bags that one
>> > would make from a square sheet (e.g., of paper) when holding one of the
>> > corners and wrapping the rest around forming a cone, and then bending
>> > it near the vertex to prevent unwrapping.
>>
>> Thank you. Of course, I had a look at some other dictionaries too (not
>> only Collins small pocket dictionary). So, I learned that kulek is what
>> we call in German "Tu"te", usually made of a paper sheet.
>>
>> But the problem here is quite different: there are no more such conic
>> paper bags in Western countries. They disappeared with the shops where
>> people bought loose stuff, e. g. half a pound of flour. Therefore, the
>> term Tu"te is free to be used for other denotates. E. g. I often use
>> that word for plastic bags, omitting "Plastik-". Similarly, according to
>> large Russian dictionaries, "paket" does NOT mean plastic bags, but
>> packing material, wrapping and the like. We have to do with semantic
>> shifts that often are not registered in dictionaries.
>>
>> I will not insist of my definitions of English words here (perhaps my
>> knowledge is too poor), but there is the general problem of finding out
>> Russian words for things denoting objects Western people are familiar
>> with, but uncommon to average Russian people because of different
>> experience in every day life. For instance, I do not know how to say
>> unambiguously "cheque" (in banking), because the Russian word chek is
>> used for what you receive at the cashier's in a supermarket.
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Armin Hetzer
>> apl. Prof., FB 10, Universitaet Bremen
>> Institut fuer Allgemeine und Angewandte Sprachwissenschaft
>> Postfach 33 04 40, D 28334 Bremen
>> http://www1.uni-bremen.de/~hetzer
>>
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