translation question

[JSD]

Colleagues,

Thanks to everyone for confirming that there is no direct translation (or
parallel term) to "Indian giver" in Russian.

Tony's description correctly identifies the economic basis (and cultural
misunderstanding) on which the term emerged in 1760's colonial
America.  The term is not, however, related to the highly ritualized
potlatch, which was a Pacific Northwest practice among the Tlingit and the
Haida, although similar notions of gift exchange were prevalent among
eastern tribes as well.  These practices so confounded colonial settlers,
who misunderstood the conception that gifts are not "property" but are
meant to remain in circulation in order to tie communities together through
social obligation, that this term eventually became a racial slur.

Many thanks,

Jim Driscoll

At 08:52 AM 11/19/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>To that end, though the pejorative meaning of the phrase "Indian giver" is
>undeniable, I wonder if its origin might not be connected with the practice
>among some Native American tribes know as potlatch.  Potlatch (as I recall
>from some undergrad anthropology courses) involved the exchange of all sorts
>of items, many of which would be traded back.  The importance of the
>exchange(s) was not the inherent or perceived value of the item exchanged,
>but rather the contact and social bonds that the exchange(s) fostered
>between the groups involved.  This practice, however, as perceived by
>non-Native Americans--more interested in the acquisition of items of
>value--was a negative pheonomenon.
>
>Tony Vanchu
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alina Israeli [mailto:aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:02 AM
>To: SEELANGS at LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] translation question
>
>
>With all the bab'e leto discussion we got away from the subject.
>
>While "Indian giver" to my knowledge doesn't exist in Russian, I would
>suggest for translation purposes
>
>         Bojtes' danajcev dary prinosjashchix.
>
>
>
>As for bab'e leto, it's not such bad or offensive thing in either language.
>In English, according to my trusted Cambridge Dictionary, it also means 'a
>pleasant or successful time nearly at the end of a particular period, such
>as the end of someone's life'. If it's "pleasant" or "successful" it
>couldn't be too offensive.
>
>As for the Russian, think of it in conjunction with
>
>"sorok pjat', sorok pjat', babka jagodka opjat'" (or something like that),
>so it is like second wind in woman's life (as some female Prime-ministers
>have proven).
>
>AI
>
>_____________
>Alina Israeli
>LFS, American University
>4400 Massachusetts Ave. NW
>Washington, DC 20016
>
>phone:  (202) 885-2387
>fax:    (202) 885-1076
>
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