v Ukraine : na Ukraine

[joe phillips]

Let me caveat my comments by confessing that I am not
a linguist by profession.  Thus, my comments are borne
of amateur musings.

I find the idea of the v/na puzzle being a polonism
interesting.  It does appear obvious that 'na' usage
in this context is more prevalent in Polish than in
other Slavic Languages (at least those which I've
studied).

Polish: na Bialorusi, na Lotwie, na Litwie, na
Ukrainie, na Wegrzech

The idea of borderlands suggested by another poster
also seems to carry some merit.  It occurs to me that
at some point in Poland's history, at least a part of
all these countries has fallen under Polish dominion
(although Estonia is rendered "v Estonii.").  Thus,
perhaps this phenomenon in Polish is indicative of her
desire to be Western European as all of these
linguistically disenfranchised "territories" or
"borderlands" are roughly to the east of historically
Polish land.

One other note regarding Polish usage: I think someone
included Italy in the list of countries that takes
"na" in Polish.  Correct usage is "we Wloszech."

I also find it interesting that the 19th century
"bookends", so to speak, of Russia (Ukraine and
Alaska) take "na".  I know that most grammars point to
Alaska's status as a peninsula as the  explanation for
"na Aliaske", however, I wonder, given the monolithic
dimensions of Alaska if the Russians had any notion
then of it being a peninsula.  I could be merely
exposing my ignorance of the times...

I don't recall any BCS usages that fit this paradigm.
Everything that comes to mind is the name of a region
and not a country, such as "na Balkanu."

I wonder if anyone knows of any other historical
changes/attempted changes in v/na usage and the
climate that precipitated such changes.

I'm enjoying this discussion.

Peace be with you!
Joe Phillips

--- John Dunn <J.Dunn at SLAVONIC.ARTS.GLA.AC.UK> wrote:
> I'm not sure it's as simple as that.  V/na usage was
> standardised quite late in the nineteenth or even
> twentieth centuries, and the boundaries can
> sometimes appear odd.  Na Ukraine has never seemed
> to me to fit into any obvious pattern, and I have
> always assumed it to be a Polonism: it fits much
> better with the Polish pattern of using 'na' with
> the names of neighbouring territories (of whatever
> hisatorical or present-day status), e.g. na Litwie,
> na Węgrzech.  On such Russian TV coverage of recent
> events in Ukraine* as I have seen, 'na Ukraine' is
> used with almost total consistency.  The one
> exception I have noticed is Svetlana Sorokina, the
> presenter of the talk-show 'Osnovnoj instinkt', who
> made a great effort to say 'v Ukraine' (her
> equivalent to Vladimir Pozner's orange tie?), though
> even her resolution faltered after she was rebuked
> by Vladimir Zhirinovskij.
>
> *If Paris is worth a mass, then Ukraine is worth at
> least a definite article! Sir Paul Dukes (a British
> spy, not the distinguished, but as yet unknighted
> historian of Russia) refers to 'the northern
> Ukraine', but 'Ukrainia' in his book 'Red Dusk and
> the Morrow' (London, 1922).  The article in English
> is hard to explain and has no particular logic now;
> I suspect that usage became standardised in the
> early 1920s, when Ukraine was seen as a vaguely
> defined land at first disputed and then after the
> Treaty of Riga divided between Poland and what
> became the Soviet Union, but I recognise that is
> only half an answer.
>
> John Dunn.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Young <young at UMBC.EDU>
> To: SEELANGS at LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU
> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:03:29 -0500
> Subject: [SEELANGS] v Ukraine : na Ukraine
>
> Martin's remarks seem right on the mark.
>
> Now for the somewhat related question of "v Ukraine"
> vs. "na Ukraine."  A
> quick Google (na russkom) search shows 2.950,000
> hits in favor of "v," and
> 2,890,000 for "na."  Do intuitions for Russian
> speakers (sorry, I don't
> have a background in Ukrainian) also fall out along
> the lines of "region"
> (na) and "sovereign state" (v)?  Does the same issue
> arise in Ukrainian?
>
> Steve.
>
> --
> Steven Young
> Associate Professor of Russian & Linguistics
> Deparment of Modern Languages & Linguistics
> University of Maryland, Baltimore County
> 1000 Hilltop Circle
> Baltimore, MD 21250
> Tel.  410-455-2117
>
> John Dunn
> SMLC (Slavonic Studies)
> University of Glasgow
> Hetheringon Building
> Bute Gardens
> Glasgow G12 8RS
> U.K.
>
> Tel.: +44 (0)141 330 5591
> Fax: +44 (0)141 330 2297
> e-mail: J.Dunn at slavonic.arts.gla.ac.uk
>
>
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