Translation Question - CORRECTION!

[Edward M Dumanis]

As I just mentioned, the literal meaning was just the fifth entry while
the real meaning was "Jewish". You are not going, I hope, to translate
word by word. So, forget about the translation of "pjataja" and "grafa"
separately from each other. The whole expression usually would not have
the meaning derived from the combination of these two separate meanings.
And, of course, it was absolutely within the language standards to ask
while talking about hiring for some job "A kak u tebja s pjatym punktom?"
or "I kto-zhe ty budesh' po pjatoj graphe?"
These questions have actually two interpretations:
1) Are you Jewish, and
2) Are you identified as Jewish according to your internal passport?

So, unless you make your reader become familiar with the double-talk, you
have no other choice but to drop the "euphemism" and translate it as
"Jewish."

Sincerely,

Edward Dumanis <dumanis at buffalo.edu>

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, DBH wrote:

> Thanks, but the problem remains unresolved.
> We're talking about the fifth entry on the first page
> inside a Soviet passport.  There's no confusion as to
> meaning or usage.  What I'm trying to figure out is
> whether there's an accepted translation into English.
> "Column" is given by the two dictionaries I consulted,
> disturbingly enough, and that translation is
> completely unacceptable.  The most common meaning of
> "grafa" in the 20th C is the not "column" (although
> that meaning exists, of course), but rather whatever
> you'd call the blank, underlined space in a form that
> you have to fill in.  The relevant page of a Soviet
> passport had (obviously, since we're discussing the
> fifth) other "grafy" -- there were about seven in
> total, I think.
> "Nationality" isn't a translation of the term.  No one
> would ask, for instance, "What's your piataia grafa?"
> Since it's clear how one would translate "piataia,"
> the question is really how to translate "grafa."
> JW Narins
> UCLA
>
>
> --- Edward M Dumanis <dumanis at BUFFALO.EDU> wrote:
>
> > "Piataja grapha" is just a euphemism for ethnicity
> > while "pjataja kolonna"
> > is a metaphor which refers to general Franco's
> > statement during  the
> > Spanish Civil War that he was leading four columns
> > of troops against
> > Madrid while the fifth column was ready to fight on
> > his side and was
> > waiting for him within the city.
> >
> > Edward Dumanis <dumanis at buffalo.edu>
> >
> > On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, J.W. wrote:
> >
> > > Ottawa (Canada), Saturday 13/11/04 9h30 EST
> > >
> > > CORRECTION!  I wrote too soon.
> > >
> > > While a reply from one Russian native speaker
> > indeed saw no difference
> > > between the terms "pjataja kolonna" and "pjata
> > grafa" (indicating that
> > > "pjataja grafa" may be used that way by some
> > Russians), another
> > > respondent reminded me of the very important
> > distinction between the
> > > two, which completely slipped by mind earlier
> > (even though I have known
> > > about this in the past).
> > >
> > > "Pjataja grafa" is used to refer to the indication
> > of one's
> > > "nationality" or ethnic background in the Soviet
> > internal passport.  Its
> > > English equivalent would depend upon the context.
> > In some contexts
> > > something like "ethnic designation" might fit.  Or
> > it might be worth
> > > adding an explanatory footnote.
> > >
> > > My humble apologies for my earlier 'conclusion',
> > which may or may not
> > > have validity.
> > >
> > > John Woodsworth, Research Associate
> > > Slavic Research Group at the University of Ottawa
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >  Use your web browser to search the archives,
> > control your subscription
> > >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the
> > SEELANGS Web Interface at:
> > >
> > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  Use your web browser to search the archives,
> > control your subscription
> >   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the
> > SEELANGS Web Interface at:
> >
> > http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription
>   options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:
>                     http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription
  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:
                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------