Translation Question - CORRECTION!

[DBH]

I see your point(s).  Still, it's not quite what I had
in mind.  Please allow me to replace my original
question with the following one: how would you
translate the phrase
"c h t v e r t a i a grafa?"

JW Narins

--- Edward M Dumanis <dumanis at BUFFALO.EDU> wrote:

> As I just mentioned, the literal meaning was just
> the fifth entry while
> the real meaning was "Jewish". You are not going, I
> hope, to translate
> word by word. So, forget about the translation of
> "pjataja" and "grafa"
> separately from each other. The whole expression
> usually would not have
> the meaning derived from the combination of these
> two separate meanings.
> And, of course, it was absolutely within the
> language standards to ask
> while talking about hiring for some job "A kak u
> tebja s pjatym punktom?"
> or "I kto-zhe ty budesh' po pjatoj graphe?"
> These questions have actually two interpretations:
> 1) Are you Jewish, and
> 2) Are you identified as Jewish according to your
> internal passport?
>
> So, unless you make your reader become familiar with
> the double-talk, you
> have no other choice but to drop the "euphemism" and
> translate it as
> "Jewish."
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Edward Dumanis <dumanis at buffalo.edu>
>
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, DBH wrote:
>
> > Thanks, but the problem remains unresolved.
> > We're talking about the fifth entry on the first
> page
> > inside a Soviet passport.  There's no confusion as
> to
> > meaning or usage.  What I'm trying to figure out
> is
> > whether there's an accepted translation into
> English.
> > "Column" is given by the two dictionaries I
> consulted,
> > disturbingly enough, and that translation is
> > completely unacceptable.  The most common meaning
> of
> > "grafa" in the 20th C is the not "column"
> (although
> > that meaning exists, of course), but rather
> whatever
> > you'd call the blank, underlined space in a form
> that
> > you have to fill in.  The relevant page of a
> Soviet
> > passport had (obviously, since we're discussing
> the
> > fifth) other "grafy" -- there were about seven in
> > total, I think.
> > "Nationality" isn't a translation of the term.  No
> one
> > would ask, for instance, "What's your piataia
> grafa?"
> > Since it's clear how one would translate
> "piataia,"
> > the question is really how to translate "grafa."
> > JW Narins
> > UCLA
> >
> >
> > --- Edward M Dumanis <dumanis at BUFFALO.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > > "Piataja grapha" is just a euphemism for
> ethnicity
> > > while "pjataja kolonna"
> > > is a metaphor which refers to general Franco's
> > > statement during  the
> > > Spanish Civil War that he was leading four
> columns
> > > of troops against
> > > Madrid while the fifth column was ready to fight
> on
> > > his side and was
> > > waiting for him within the city.
> > >
> > > Edward Dumanis <dumanis at buffalo.edu>
> > >
> > > On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, J.W. wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ottawa (Canada), Saturday 13/11/04 9h30 EST
> > > >
> > > > CORRECTION!  I wrote too soon.
> > > >
> > > > While a reply from one Russian native speaker
> > > indeed saw no difference
> > > > between the terms "pjataja kolonna" and "pjata
> > > grafa" (indicating that
> > > > "pjataja grafa" may be used that way by some
> > > Russians), another
> > > > respondent reminded me of the very important
> > > distinction between the
> > > > two, which completely slipped by mind earlier
> > > (even though I have known
> > > > about this in the past).
> > > >
> > > > "Pjataja grafa" is used to refer to the
> indication
> > > of one's
> > > > "nationality" or ethnic background in the
> Soviet
> > > internal passport.  Its
> > > > English equivalent would depend upon the
> context.
> > > In some contexts
> > > > something like "ethnic designation" might fit.
>  Or
> > > it might be worth
> > > > adding an explanatory footnote.
> > > >
> > > > My humble apologies for my earlier
> 'conclusion',
> > > which may or may not
> > > > have validity.
> > > >
> > > > John Woodsworth, Research Associate
> > > > Slavic Research Group at the University of
> Ottawa
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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