"Na miru i smert' krasna"

Sun Jun 8 22:03:32 UTC 2008

What Alina suggested was not the difficulty of translating or analyzing (proverbs are as tough as idioms, only worse) but rather a tip of sorts--that proverbs' referents are not literal, while the logic of their relations is. I find this relation very important for understanding both language and poetics. Riffaterre in his fictional Truth actually tells of fiction that it lies mimetically but tells the truth diegetically. Its "what is completely fantastic or made-up, while its "how" must be as it is in real life. In fact, the total irrelevance of the factual referents makes the relationship between them even more important and even imperatively so. 

----- Original Message -----
From: Gasan Gusejnov <gusejnov at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] "Na miru i smert' krasna"

> "Proverbs are proverbs when they are not taken literally"... only 
> if you
> have neither to analyze nor to translate them.
> 
> Looking for a good equivalent of a proverb, aren't we obliged to bring
> together both the general or approximate meaning and the literal 
> expression?
> 
> *"Even Ozhegov and Shvedova's dictionary explains it thus: ?? ???? 
> ? ??????
> ?????? (????.) - ??? ????? ????????? ?? ? ????????, ?????? ? 
> ???????. (
> http://lib.dnipro.net/koi/DIC/OZHEGOW/ozhegow_m_o.txt)".*
> 
> Let us try to test your advice comparing the following proverbs 
> (Dal') and
> precedent texts, at least partly covered by the explanation of your
> authorities:
> 
> ?? ???? ? ?????? ??????. (?.?.????)
> ? ? ??? ???? ????? (?.?.????)
> ?? ???????? (??? ??????) ? ??? ???????? (????? ???????). (?.?.????)
> ?? ???????? ????? ?????????.
> ?? ???????? ????? ?????????.
> 
> Just try to translate the following short piece with the flattening 
> proposalof Ozhegov/Shvedova:
> ?????? ??????. ??????? <http://www.weller.ru/?id=22&cid=16>. "...?? 
> ?????????? ?????, ?? ???? ? ?????? ??????, ?? ???????? ? ??? 
> ?????????, ????????
> ??? ? ???????..."
> Not to mention the recent Russian "stjob" and other so called
> anomalies<http://www.ruthenia.ru/folklore/zhigarina4.htm>of the
> current Russian usage.
> 
> This is not a bad place to discuss the subject. *Even Ozhegov and
> Shvedova*would agree, that "??? ????? ????????? ?? ? ????????, ??????
> ? ???????". :)
> 
> 
> 2008/6/8 Alina Israeli <aisrael at american.edu>:
> 
> > Proverbs are proverbs when they are not taken literally:
> >
> > Poshli duraka Bogu molit'sja, on i lob rasshibet.
> >
> > Za dvumja zajcami pogonish'sja, ni odnogo ne pojmaesh'.
> >
> > Bez truda ne vytjanesh' i rybku iz pruda.
> >
> > and a zillion others are not said when someone was actually sent 
> to pray to
> > God, or was chasing two rabbits, or fishing in the pond.
> >
> > What we find in Tolstoy is closer to the realization of the 
> metaphor, when
> > he actually applied the proverb to the situation of death.
> >
> > Here's another literary example where the proverb is used in its 
> normal,> i.e. metaphorical, sense:
> >
> > ????  ??????,  ????  ??????,  ??? ????? ?????? ????????? ??? 
> ?????????,> ??????  ???  ??  ?  ??? ??? ???????? ?????? ???????? 
> ???????????. ????
> > ?????
> > ?????????????   ????????,   ???   ????????   ?????,  ?????????
> >  ????????????
> > ?????????   ??????:   ??  ????  ?  ??????????  ?????  ?????-??  
> ??????>  ????
> > ??????????  ????????????????  ?????????? ?? ??? ?? ???????????? 
> ?????, ?
> > 30,
> > ??  ??  40 ??????? ? ??????????? ??????????. ?? ???? ? ?????? 
> ??????! ???
> > ??
> > ????????  ?????????????  ????????, ?? ????????? ??????????? ? ???
> > ??????????
> > ??  ????????  ????  ?  ???  ??????,  ???? ???????? ??????????? ?
> > ???????????
> > ??????????  ?????  ????????????????  ?  ?????? ??. (Leonid Andreev.
> > http://az.lib.ru/a/andreew_l_n/text_2040.shtml)
> >
> >
> > Even Ozhegov and Shvedova's dictionary explains it thus: ?? ???? 
> ? ??????
> > ?????? (????.) - ??? ????? ????????? ?? ? ????????,
> > ?????? ? ???????. 
> (http://lib.dnipro.net/koi/DIC/OZHEGOW/ozhegow_m_o.txt)>
> > Note: VSE mozhno perenesti, not death.
> >
> > The demand that 'death' be present in translation is equal to 
> demanding> that 'forehead', 'rabbit', and 'pond' be present in the 
> translation of the
> > three proverbs I listed at the top of this message.
> >
> >
> > On Jun 8, 2008, at 2:31 AM, Gasan Gusejnov wrote:
> >
> >  Zhukov's example from Lev Tolstoy's "Metel' is excellent and 
> seems to be
> >> very helpful: "????? ????, ??? ???????? ?? ??, ??? ?? ??? ????? 
> ????????,>> -
> >> ?? ???? ? ?????? ??????, - ?? ?????????? ???? ??????? ? ??? ???, 
> ??? ???
> >> ???? ?????". Zhukov's comparison of the proverb with "? ????? ? 
> ???? ??
> >> ??????", makes sense. But only a half of it. To touch the 
> problem from
> >> another side, we shouldn't forget the word "?", which means 
> "????" here:
> >>
> >> [Normally death is horrible, but] in the crowd {?? ???? ~ ?? 
> ???? ? ????}
> >> even death may appear beautiful.
> >>
> >> It is easy to use such
> >> sentences<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> >> Dulce_et_decorum_est_pro_patria_mori>in
> >> malam
> >> or in bonam partem, isn't it.
> >>
> >> None of the proposed translations -
> >>
> >> *"Misery loves company"*.
> >>
> >> *"Company in distress makes sorrow (trouble) less"*
> >>
> >> *"Public death is <always> glorious" or "public death is <always>
> >> beautiful".*-
> >> responded to the extremity of this proverbial *death* (neither 
> *trouble*,>> nor *ubytok*, nor *beda*). which under certain 
> circumstances  *may* *even*
> >> <not
> >> always :-) > become *beautiful*. The proposed interpretations of 
> the>> dictionaries cited are diminishing the sharpness of the 
> proverb's literal
> >> expression. For a translator, I guess, this argument should be more
> >> convincing than voting or bunching banalities. And we still did 
> not find
> >> "a
> >> good translation or a possible English equivalent", did we?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ????? ????????
> >>
> >> 119992 ?.?????? ???-2
> >> ????????? ????
> >> I ???????????? ??????
> >> ?????????????? ?????????
> >> ??????? ???????????? ?????????
> >> +7 4959392006
> >> ?????????:
> >> +7 926 9179192
> >> ????????:
> >> +7 499 7370810
> >>
> >
> > Alina Israeli
> > LFS, American University
> > 4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW
> > Washington DC. 20016
> > (202) 885-2387
> > fax (202) 885-1076
> > aisrael at american.edu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Use your web browser to search the archives, control your subscription
  options, and more.  Visit and bookmark the SEELANGS Web Interface at:
                    http://seelangs.home.comcast.net/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------