"gender neutral pronouns"

[Emily Saunders]

There have been several very interesting points made on this issue.   
But I would hesitate before calling the desk editors "tone-deaf."   
When I mentioned the debate to my husband (both of us are in our 30's)  
this morning, his first assumption at my rather rough explanation was  
that the "her" was the debatable point and not the "its."  I suspect  
that this is more of a question of age and of the language habits that  
go with them.  To younger ears the "her" sounds (as has been  
mentioned) potentially quaint and affected when referring to  
countries, with perhaps poetic connotations (which, it could be  
argued, might be appropriate in a piece having to do with Russia's  
most beloved poet).  But in our 30-something standard English "its"  
would be the default (and not an error) and "her" the one with  
particular connotations (and potentially inappropriate).  This strikes  
me as being neither more nor less than an example of natural language  
change, the study of which gives linguists such good employment --  
but, I might add, generally irreversible in its force and direction.

As a sort of footnote, I expect that the use of "an" in front of the  
words with pronounced "h's" (an historian vs. a historian) is going to  
disappear by the next generation or so.  The present perfect, it seems  
to me, has already undergone a fairly fundamental shift in standard  
usage where "did you eat?" is as acceptable as "have you eaten," in  
ascertaining whether or not someone is, at this moment, still hungry.

Respectfully,

Emily Saunders

On Sep 5, 2008, at 4:43 AM, William Ryan wrote:

> Good points, and I agree. As an editor and writer myself I would let  
> style and context guide my choice - and my preference would no doubt  
> be influenced by my age, educational background, politics etc. I  
> asked my wife, also an academic (historian) but younger than me,  
> what her choice would be - she said she uses both depending on  
> context but felt the 'she' option for countries was slightly more  
> old-fashioned. There could well also be a difference of preference  
> in different parts of the English-speaking world. With regard to  
> ships, I asked my schoolboy son (18), who goes on occasional cadet  
> courses in the Royal Navy, what the current colloquial use is there  
> and he said immediately 'she', and seemed slightly surprised that  
> anyone should object to this.
>
> With regard to the German and Soviet examples quoted below I think  
> there can be a subtle difference between 'she' and 'her' - in the  
> cases where 'she' doesn't sound right, 'her' might. Extending the  
> German example given, one could certainly not replace 'she' with  
> 'it' ("it started it") but one might well write "Why did they invade  
> Germany? - Well, Germany started it but claimed her vital interests  
> were at stake". In that case 'its' would sound quite odd to my ear.  
> As you say, try every permutation - a carefully designed multiple- 
> choice questionnaire might produce interesting results.
>
> This is a wonderfully delicate matter, and all the more reason for  
> tone-deaf publishers' desk editors not to impose ill-considered  
> house rules on their authors.
>
> Will Ryan
>
>
> Kim Braithwaite wrote:
>> There are indeed many contexts where "she" and "her" for a country  
>> feel perfectly right - e.g., "... Stand beside her / and guide  
>> her..." in Irving Berlin's "God Bless America." In this case "it"  
>> would really clunk.
>>
>> But a little linguistic experimentation - try every permutation you  
>> can think of - should reveal that there are lots of contexts where  
>> the feminine pronoun sounds quite strained, even laughable: "Why  
>> did they invade Germany?" "Well, she started it."
>>
>> In reference to the Soviet Union (and no, I'm not picking on  
>> dictatorships) I'm not certain this sounds right: "She covers one  
>> sixth of the earth's surface." I'd be tempted just to say (with  
>> "the Soviet Union" as the antecedent) "The country covers ... etc.
>> "
>> No doubt other investigators can find their own examples.
>>
>> Mr Kim Braithwaite, Translator
>> "Good is better than evil, because it's nicer" - Mammy Yokum (Al  
>> Capp)
>>
>
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