Simple Grammar Question

Fri Jun 19 09:19:26 UTC 2009

With regard to the question of the genitive rule: an interesting recent theoretical analysis of this rule is:

W. Andries van Helden

Vicissitudes of the genitive rule

In: Dutch Contributions to the Fourteenth International Congress Of Slavists, Ohrid: Linguistics (Studies in Slavic and General Linguistics 34). Amsterdam- New York: Rodopi, 2008, 145-216  

But I am afraid that the insights from this paper make a straightforward answer to the practical question more difficult, rather than easier.

Best, 

Egbert Fortuin

> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:10:41 -0400
> From: trubikhina at AOL.COM
> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Simple Grammar Question
> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu
> 
> You are right: it not a simple question. There are actual multiple 
> RULES for this, and those of us who treated “Spravochnik Rozenthalia” 
> as a “livre d'échec” during exams in philological departments might 
> still remember some of these rules☺ Generally, Genitive case makes 
> negation stronger. Accusative “weakens” the negation.
> Here are some of the rules. For more you might want to consult 
> Rozhenthal.
> T
> ransitive verbs in negative forms require Genitive:
> —when there is a so called “partitive Genitive” (food and drinks): On 
> ne p’yot vina. Ona ne est miasa.
> —with verbs of “feeling,” “perception,” “thinking,” and “desire”: On ne 
> zhelal ee prisutstviia.
> —if there is a particle NI or pronoun/adverb starting with NI (e.g. 
> Nikogda). e.g "My nikogda ne chuvstvuem strakha. My ne ispytyvaem ni 
> maleishikh ugryzenij sovesti".
> —With verbs “imet’,” “poluchat’,” “dostavat’.”: "On ne dostal biletov."
> —with abstract nouns, such as “joy” or “hope”: "On ne pokazyvaet 
> radosti. On ne teriaet nadezhdy."
> —in set expressions, such as “ne davat’ khodu” (actually, here we have 
> an irregular Genitive), as in “Eugene Onegin”: “Privychke miloi ne dal 
> khodu.”
> —in participle and verbal adverb constructions: “Ne d
> oev buterbroda, on 
> pobezhal na rabotu.”
> —In infinitive constructions expressing strict prohibition: “Okon ne 
> otkryvat’!”
> There must be more, but I can’t remember now.
> 
> Accusative case is used with transitive verbs:
> —the object is an animate noun, especially a proper name: “Ia ne 
> liubliu Natal’iu.” “On ne zhaleet babushku i ne liubit mamu.”
> —with inversion (object stands before the verb): “Knigu etu ia ne 
> chital I chitat’ ne budu!”
> —with “ne ochen’”: Ia ne ochen’ ponimaiu tekst.”
> —if the object after the transitive verb is THIS specific object: “I ne 
> bral den’gi, kotorye ty ostavil na stole.”
> —with two negations: “Ty ne mozhesh’ ne pomnit’ etot roman.”
> —in set expressions: “Iaitsa kuritsu ne uchat.”
> —with the “-nedo” prefix: “nedouchit’ stikhotvorenie.”
> I’m sure there is more, but once again, I don’t remember now.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Julia
> 
> ----------------------------
> Julia Trubikhina, PhD
> New York University
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alina Israeli <aisrael at AMERICAN.EDU>
> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu
> Sent: Thu, Jun 18, 2009 6:39 pm
> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Simple Grammar Question
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very complicated grammar question, worthy of a dissertation,
> and so
> me already have been written. 
>  
> 
> Somewhere around the turn of the 20th century there was a change in 
> norm
> with negations in this phrase. We find in Chekhov: он не любит родины,
> потому что оставил там дурную память о себе
> (http://az.lib.ru/c/chehow_a_p/text_0210.shtml) 
>  
> 
> and certainly earlier: 
>  
> 
> Волынской не любит жены своей
> (http://az.lib.ru/l/lazhechnikow_i_i/text_0020.shtml) 
>  
> 
> There is a split between concrete and/or specific vs. abstract and/or
> general nouns, and a rather complicated view of what is concrete or
> specific; литература is concrete, hence accusative now, just as жена 
> and
> родина. 
>  
> 
> Огонь is general, non-specific, consequently 
> 
> Ум не любит огня, ибо всегда состязается с сердцем.
> (lib.ru/RERIH/Rerih_Mir1.txt_Piece40.28) rather than огонь. 
>  
> 
> Вода is more concrete, so the majority of examples we find are in
> accusative: 
> 
> 
> 
> Ребенок не любит воду, но еще больше ненавидит дистанционное 
> управление.
> (zhurnal.lib.ru/i/inspektor_p/morskaylisisa.shtml) 
>  
> 
> although genitive is not as dated as in the case of the wife: 
>  
> 
> Господин Пунтила не любит воды, я это сразу понял.
> (lib.ru/INPROZ/BREHT/breht3_4.txt_Piece40.02) 
>  
> 
> And of course one could debate the meaning of любить (there are 
> several)
> and its influence on the choice of the case. 
>  
> 
> 
> Food is very complicated. 
>  
> 
> не любит вина but не любит молоко 
> 
> не любит манной каши and манную кашу, but the first one is 10 times 
> more
> likely. 
> 
> не любит хлеб and хлеба, but the first one is 200 times more likely. 
>  
> 
> Variativity suggested by Paul Gallagher would be nice, but it doesn't
> always work: works for wine, but I
> doubt cream of wheat presupposes any
> variativity (or is it my hatred of it?). I would expect multiple
> varieties of bread, and yet accusative is preferred. 
>  
> 
> Anyway, this is for another dissertation, or a paper. 
>  
> 
> As much as I avoid examples from poetic language (I already once wrote
> about it in conjunction with -to and -nibud'), this one — Я не люблю
> фатального исхода. — fits: there hasn't been any outcome at the moment
> the poet spoke, so this is an abstraction. 
>  
> 
> AI 
>  
> 
> 
> Nola wrote: 
> 
> > I apologise for asking this Russian grammar question on this list, 
> but so far, I can't get a satisfactory answer yet anywhere else.I have 
> asked Russians, who know what should be said, but not why or about the 
> rule which applies. 
> 
> > I am having trouble with a sentence which could have either genitive 
> or accusative case applied to the last word. The Russian speakers told 
> me to use the accusative case. Okay..I will, but I need to know a rule 
> so that I can know when to choose accusative over genitive in others 
> like this. 
> 
> > Анна Борисовна не любит литературу.( or литературы?) 
> 
> > Nola 
> 
> > 
> 0D
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> >  
> 
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