Coredemptrix

Thu Sep 9 11:32:32 UTC 2010

  Ralph hits the nail on the head and I agree with him absolutely. The 
phrase objected to in Daniel's message was "Mary is a very significant 
and powerful deity for Orthodox believers." This is a categorical 
statement and is factually untrue. If he had said "In Orthodox belief 
the reverence accorded to Mary is tantamount to the worship of a deity" 
this would have been a provocative statement of his own polemic attitude 
to Christianity but at least it would have been one with which it is 
possible to agreed or disagree in an academic argument, since it would 
not have claimed as a fact that Mary is worshipped by the Orthodox as a 
"deity". Daniel, given his background, must surely know this and should 
re-phrase his tendentious text.

With regard to the original word which gave rise to this correspondence, 
"coredemptrix", it is a descriptive appellation which has not yet been 
subjected to the Western scholastic passion for definition, which the 
Orthodox tend to resist, and is not an article of faith for Catholics, 
though many would like it to be. Personally I hope it will remain as no 
more than one of the many poetic appellations of Mary in the litanies 
(who would want to define "Star of the Sea"?) and will never be 
dogmatically defined because although the underlying belief is not new 
or startling, the hopelessly neo-Latin term itself gives rise to both 
honest misunderstanding and deliberate misrepresentation.

For the probably small and bemused number of SEELANGers who have 
followed this thread, there is a sober history of "co-redemptrix" in the 
entry in Wikipedia, albeit from a largely Catholic viewpoint.

Will

On 08/09/2010 18:48, R. M. Cleminson wrote:
>  Es tut mir Leid, aber ein Tisch ist ein Tisch. (For the dire
>  consequences of ignoring this basic principle, see the well-known
>  short story by Peter Bichsel.) Words mean what they mean. A deity
>  is a being of a completely different nature (essentia, οὐσία) from a
>  human being. Nobody in the Christian community (whether Orthodox,
>  Roman Catholic, or any other denomination) regards Mary as a deity.
>  Nobody in the Christian community (nor, a fortiori, outside it)
>  behaves in such a way as to allow her to be classified
>  phenomenologically as a deity, by offering her the worship (λατρεία)
>  which is due to the Deity alone. Therefore it is not a matter of
>  personal beliefs, nor of whether one's expertise is in the field of
>  Slavonic studies or religious studies: to say that Mary is a deity is
>  simply WRONG, in the same way that it is wrong to say that "domum" is
>  locative when it is in fact accusative.
>
>  It is not obligatory to believe in the object of one's study. It is,
>  however, necessary to use words correctly if one aspires to academic
>  respectability.
>
>
>
>  ----- Originálna správa ----- Odosielateľ: "Daniel
>  Rancour-Laferriere" <darancourlaferriere at COMCAST.NET> Komu:
>  SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Dátum: utorok, september 7, 2010 10:14:27
>  Predmet: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS] Coredemptrix
>
>  Dear Olga and Rolf, I initially asked only for a potential Russian
>  translation of the word "coredemptrix," doubting that it would exist,
>  or at least doubting that it would be meaningful in the Orthodox
>  context, since I had previously published an entire book on
>  veneration of the Mother of God in Russia and did not recall any
>  notion of a coredeemer among Russian Orthodox believers or
>  theologians. Then I made the mistake of copying a footnote from my
>  book in progress about Christian attitudes toward Mary. The book is
>  not about Slavic studies, but is more properly in the field of
>  religious studies. There are atheists in this latter field, and I am
>  one of them. However, SEELANGS is a list for Slavists, so I will not
>  comment on the theological assertions which have been made here. I
>  do welcome any information (off-list) from you about any books or
>  articles which you have published about Mary.
>
>  With regards, Daniel R-L.
>
>
>  On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:26 AM, FIEGUTH Rolf wrote:
>
>  Dear Olga,
>
>  you are quite right in stating that Mary cannot be a deity for
>  Christian believers, even for Her most ardent and deepest venerators.
>  But it is precisely for this very reason that "coredemptrix" is an
>  inacceptable concept and term outside the Roman Catholic Church,
>  since it puts Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. Best wishes to
>  you and Daniel,
>
>  Rolf Fieguth ________________________________________ Von: SEELANGS:
>  Slavic & East European Languages and Literatures list
>  [SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu] im Auftrag von Olga Meerson
>  [meersono at GEORGETOWN.EDU] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. September 2010
>  04:30 An: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu Betreff: Re: [SEELANGS] AW: [SEELANGS]
>  Coredemptrix
>
>  Mary is NOT a deity, at least not for Orthodox or roman Catholic
>  believers. Daniel, if you write such a thing, it is like claiming
>  that Russians' reverence for Pushkin proves they [ we believe he is a
>  god. A nice metaphor but not true literally. Not all veneration is
>  deifying. Certainly not the veneration of the Mother of God in the
>  eyes of those who venerate Her. Isn't it logical that they should be
>  consulted on what they believe? If you write that She is "an
>  important deity" for the Orthodox, be prepared for the whole
>  publication you are contributing to to be compromised by such a
>  statement. perhaps there is other compromising evidence in your book
>  but I hope not so. It is amazing how the same people who uphold
>  fairly high standards for their own fields of scholarship say all
>  kinds of nonsense about religion and theology! There are things to
>  know about theological matters, and if you don't know them, it is
>  prudent not to talk about them--if only to uphold your own intellec!
>  tu! al reputation. Respectfully, o.m.
>
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