FW: [SEELANGS] T sar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала

[Boris Dralyuk]

Egads, I meant "compare/cf" not "pace".  As for Robert's second question:

> "Какой-то дурак уж на кони кожу несет."
> All three Yagas are basically saying that Ivan is struggling to keep his
> exhausted horse on the go, that he is having to whip it and beat it.  Am I
> right in understanding the third Yaga to be saying that he is, in effect,
> flaying his horse, whipping the skin off it?

I think flaying is a very good explanation; you beat a "конь" long enough, 
"можно снести кожу."  Here's something I found in Vsev. Fed. Miller's 
'Digorskiia skazaniia' (1902), p. 107:

"Он плетью так три раза ударил коня, что из его бока выпали три куска кожи 
(на подошву), а у него из руки три куска на оконечность плети: конь понёсся 
подобно ветру и дождевым тучам."

A translation from Digorian, but...

There's also the long shot that the "кожа" is Ivan's own - a metonym.  In 
that case, Ivan may be tearing along on his steed, as if his hide depended 
on it.  Unlikely, of course.

At your service,
Boris


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Boris Dralyuk" <ingsoc at EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала


> Dear Robert and all,
>
> I don't know whether the following goes without saying, but I know with 
> some certainty that "Не честь–хвала да молодецкая!" is a fixed epithet 
> reflecting a bogatyr's shame in many bylinas.  Pace this from "Илья 
> Муромец в ссоре с князем Владимиром":
>
> «А не честь-хвала да молодецкая
> Сидеть русскому могучему богатырю
> С голью кабацкою, с нищетой бедняцкою, [...]»
>
> So here, "не честь-хвала" is unambiguously a negation - our hero is 
> "бесчестный" and "непохвальный", keeping such company.  The scene also 
> recalls your fairytale's Ivan-Tsarevich, incognito  "с удальцами на ряду."
>
> I hope that helps a bit!
>
> Yours,
> Boris
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Robert Chandler <kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM>
>>Sent: Sep 27, 2010 1:30 PM
>>To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu
>>Subject: [SEELANGS] FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала
>>
>>Olgajan,
>>
>>Here is what I wrote originally:
>>
>>Ivan Tsarevich is overwhelmed by the beauty of the sleeping Marya-Krasa,
>>Dolga Kosa.  And so
>>“Что мне не честь!” разгорелось у молодца ретивое сердце.
>>
>>And then he waters his horse at her well.
>>
>>            *
>>
>>I NOW understand this as "Is not this an honour for me?"  And it IS an
>>honour for him.  She is someone very special (a niece of Baba Yaga!!), and
>>at the end of the story he will marry her and live with her in the
>>podsolnechnoe tsarstvo.
>>
>>Rx
>>
>>
>>------ Forwarded Message
>>From: Olga Meerson <meersono at georgetown.edu>
>>Reply-To: seelangs <SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU>
>>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:57 -0400
>>To: seelangs <SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU>
>>Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не  честь–хвала
>>
>>Robertjan, Re:
>>"Не честь–хвала да молодецкая! - в дорожку был справивши не в вестимую,
>>получил своего батюшка вси прихоти, и - буде поискать свого родного 
>>братца,
>>Дмитрия-царевича!"
>>
>>What is the PREVIOUS context for the expression? Negations (e.g., as 
>>listed
>>similes) may have a non-negated effect in Russian folklore (e.g.. ьл не
>>ветер ветку клонит, не дубравушка шумит--то мое сердечко стонет, как 
>>осенний
>>лист дрожит), and in fact, the same semantic shade WOULD be present in the
>>"CHEM mne ne chest'?", as a rhetorical question. But NOT IN ALL
>>contexts--certainly, not in chto mne beschest'e?! Negations, even if a 
>>given
>>sequence of words containing them is the exact same, may mean very 
>>different
>>thongs depending on the context OF that syntax--what surrounds it.
>>
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