Vocalics & " честь-хвала"discussion.

[Iaroslav Pankovskyi]

Dear Robert and All,
I have been observing the "честь-хвала" discussion for some time now.
>From my perspective I would like to say that it is not only the lexical
meaning that matters but also nonverbal means of communication
(I love them). Vocalics (intonation, speech volume, speed of speech)
are all important. Sometimes so much important that they complitely
alter the meaning.

Think of a mother mother and her little son. The boy breaks a vase
and she tells him "What a good boy!" Does she really mean "a good boy"
or rather "naughty boy"? In fact both the mother and the boy understand
what she really means. Why? Due to the variations in speech, vocalics.

Now, going back to "честь-хвала". I strongly believe that Russian speech
can be highly emotional. And "честь-хвала" may be just such a case.
In my opinion, pronounced correspondingly it will mean "Ah, 
[whatsoever]...".
It actually make very little sense on its own out of context.

Best wishes,
Iaroslav P.

Dear Robert and all,

I don't know whether the following goes without saying, but I know with 
some certainty that "Не честь–хвала да молодецкая!" is a fixed epithet 
reflecting a bogatyr's shame in many bylinas. Pace this from "Илья 
Муромец в ссоре с князем Владимиром":

«А не честь-хвала да молодецкая
Сидеть русскому могучему богатырю
С голью кабацкою, с нищетой бедняцкою, [...]»

So here, "не честь-хвала" is unambiguously a negation - our hero is 
"бесчестный" and "непохвальный", keeping such company. The scene also 
recalls your fairytale's Ivan-Tsarevich, incognito "с удальцами на 
ряду."

I hope that helps a bit!

Yours,
Boris

-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Chandler <kcf19 at DIAL.PIPEX.COM 
[compose.cgi?enc=utf-8;4e0d;mailto=kcf19%40DIAL.PIPEX.COM]>
>Sent: Sep 27, 2010 1:30 PM
>To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu 
[compose.cgi?enc=utf-8;4e0d;mailto=SEELANGS%40bama.ua.edu]
>Subject: [SEELANGS] FW: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала
>
>Olgajan,
>
>Here is what I wrote originally:
>
>Ivan Tsarevich is overwhelmed by the beauty of the sleeping 
Marya-Krasa,
>Dolga Kosa. And so
>“Что мне не честь!” разгорелось у молодца ретивое сердце.
>
>And then he waters his horse at her well.
>
> *
>
>I NOW understand this as "Is not this an honour for me?" And it IS an
>honour for him. She is someone very special (a niece of Baba Yaga!!), 
and
>at the end of the story he will marry her and live with her in the
>podsolnechnoe tsarstvo.
>
>Rx
>
>
>------ Forwarded Message
>From: Olga Meerson <meersono at georgetown.edu 
[compose.cgi?enc=utf-8;4e0d;mailto=meersono%40georgetown.edu]>
>Reply-To: seelangs <SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU 
[compose.cgi?enc=utf-8;4e0d;mailto=SEELANGS%40BAMA.UA.EDU]>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:57 -0400
>To: seelangs <SEELANGS at BAMA.UA.EDU 
[compose.cgi?enc=utf-8;4e0d;mailto=SEELANGS%40BAMA.UA.EDU]>
>Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Tsar'-devitsa - Не честь–хвала
>
>Robertjan, Re:
>"Не честь–хвала да молодецкая! - в дорожку был справивши не в вестимую,
>получил своего батюшка вси прихоти, и - буде поискать свого родного 
братца,
>Дмитрия-царевича!"
>
>What is the PREVIOUS context for the expression? Negations (e.g., as 
listed
>similes) may have a non-negated effect in Russian folklore (e.g.. ьл не
>ветер ветку клонит, не дубравушка шумит--то мое сердечко стонет, как 
осенний
>лист дрожит), and in fact, the same semantic shade WOULD be present in 
the
>"CHEM mne ne chest'?", as a rhetorical question. But NOT IN ALL
>contexts--certainly, not in chto mne beschest'e?! Negations, even if a 
given
>sequence of words containing them is the exact same, may mean very 
different
>thongs depending on the context OF that syntax--what surrounds it.
>
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