Analogs of Vysotsky - IV

[Matthew Walker]

One more comment... I won't argue about the cultural significance of 
Kurt Cobain and his relation to "grunge," as this obviously isn't the 
forum for it, nor did I necessarily want to compare him directly to 
Vysotsky: the question of who wrote better songs or was more impressive 
in concert is, as I said, always going to be a subjective one. You might 
loathe him, which I understand, but when I was at MGU as an exchange 
student in the nineties I also met Russian kids who thought 
"Heart-Shaped Box" was genius; in short, de gustibus non est 
disputandum, everybody has their hobby-horse, etc. Who knows, maybe 
those kids just hadn't listened to enough Vysotsky yet! The point I was 
trying to make was rather about the difficulty of identifying anyone in 
US music culture who has this "unlimited" appeal you're looking for. I 
doubt even Elvis really satisfies this, and any claim he might have to 
"longevity" has to come with serious qualifications. After Elvis died -- 
and I think most people are pretty convinced he's dead ;) -- someone 
asked John Lennon about it, and he chuckled and said something like, 
"What are you talking about, Elvis died when he joined the army," i.e. 
long before he got to the White House to pose with Nixon or keeled over 
from all the prescription drugs at Graceland. More importantly though, I 
think it wouldn't be an exaggeration to state that most Americans these 
days respond to Elvis more as the kitsch object of the '68 Comeback 
special than as an actual musician, and that there are actually 
significant parts of US music culture that feel absolutely no attachment 
to Elvis at all--just ask Chuck D.

Best,

Matt Walker

On 2/10/14 1:22 PM, Sentinel76 Astrakhan wrote:
> Hello, again.
>
> /I would vote for Dylan. One of the original criticisms against this 
> was that Dylan only spoke to the American intelligentsia while 
> Vysotsky's influence was more universal in the USSR. That may be true 
> (although others in this list have written about Dylan's broad 
> influence, with which I agree), but it could be argued that they were 
> both speaking to the same audience. This depends on the definition of 
> "intelligentsia," but if that term is defined broadly as those who are 
> socially and politically conscious, then Vysotsky spoke to the same 
> people. The only difference is that there were many more Soviet 
> citizens into that category than Americans. /
>
> I disagree.  An intellectual is an intellectual, and a bum in the 
> street is a bum in the street.  Vysotsky appealed to factory workers, 
> miners, truck drivers, cops, and prisoners in a way that Dylan did 
> not.  I maintain that Cash and especially Marley appealed to these 
> (huge) segments of the society substantially more than Dylan.
>
> /I don't think anyone could possibly have had the same influence in 
> America that Vysotsky did in the USSR. /
> //
> Elvis.  If only he wrote better poetry, Americans would have them 
> their own Vysotsky.  Heck, Lennon came close.
> //
> /Attention is pulled in too many different directions over here (but 
> it's fun to hear everyone argue for their favorites!). I don't mean 
> this as an insult, but there's a reason why there are 8-10 
> American/British artists on that list and only one Soviet. /
>
> That's just not true.  I can bring up Okudzhava, BG, Shevchuk, and 
> Tsoy who are not far behind Cash, Dylan, and Cobain in terms of their 
> impact (if at all).  And, speaking of arguing their favorites:
> /But the most appropriate comparison is actually Eddie Vedder and 
> Pearl Jam./
> You clearly let your personal tastes carry you away. PJ's appeal was 
> even briefer than Nirvana's.  "Massively popular" is a massive 
> overstatement.
> /So, I would argue, in terms of his lasting fame, Vysotsky's acting 
> should be considered. /
> In terms of lasting fame -- absolutely.  But, like I said:  his main 
> two roles had largely a posthumous effect.
> /But I still believe that there can not possibly be an American 
> /Western equivalent of Vladimir Vysonsky. To truly see his uniqueness 
> we have to look at the context (the Soviet state, the time of 
> stagnation) and recall that Vysotsky was a voice of non-conformity, 
> subversion and protest. None of the American or any Western 
> singers/poets/bards had to deal with anything comparable to the Soviet 
> censorship. /
> Bob Marley.  In fact, Marley went to far greater distances in 
> "protest" than any of the people we've discussed so far, including 
> Vysotsky.
> Vysotsky, btw, was never an open "protester."  He never wrote a song 
> like Marley's "Get up, Stand up."  He never called out for the open 
> protest and was never an open dissident. All his songs were ultimately 
> about himself, in various (often imaginary) scenarios.  He was the 
> ultimate lone wolf.  Power of One, personified.
> /Vysotsky’s topics and images were truly unique. Just recall his songs 
> “The One Who did not Shoot” (tot, kotoryi ne strelial), Penal 
> Batallions (Shtrafnye batal’ony), Bathhouse (Ban’ka). /
> They were unique, but these are not the best examples.  For example, 
> one can, without too much stress, imagine "The One Who Didn't 
> Shoot," being written not only by Alexander Galich, but also by Bob 
> Dylan.  I cannot imagine anybody writing "Wolfhunt," "The Ornery 
> Horses," "The Monument," or "History of Illness," that's for sure.
> I am still struggling with Marley.  I have listened to several songs 
> of his last night.  He has a totally different vibe from Vysotsky.  He 
> does have a strong message and his words are very resonant, but so far 
> I haven't heard any notable storytelling.  And Vysotsky was, first and 
> foremost, a terrific storyteller.  Marley's words don't seem to carry 
> much of intellectual stimulation, like those of Vysotsky, Dylan, and 
> Cohen.  Plus Marley just sounds too laid back, ya'know?  Vysotsky was 
> all about intensity and attack.
> As far as Marley's appeal / impact goes, it seems that I 
> underestimated his popularity.  From talking to different people, it 
> seems like he currently rivals, and possibly surpasses Morrison.  
> Again, we are talking US/UK, because in the Third World Marley beats 
> everyone into pulp.  But even in America you will not find many kids, 
> of all races and statutes, who would not have heard of Marley.
> The only aspect that I don't see anybody rivaling Vysotsky, in the 
> West or in the East, is his intensity and sheer domination.  In the 
> world of thrash metal, maybe (think James Hetfield of Metallica and 
> Phil Anselmo of Pantera), but they are fairly low in the category of 
> "universal listenability" :).
> Vadim
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