Fwd: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions) & ki- "to turn (again) into"

Fri Dec 14 00:10:57 UTC 2007

> Very interesting quote & accompanying thoughts, Alfred!
>
> First of all, thanks for recommending greater in-depth analysis of  
> E. A-O-H's style to the attention of the Siouan List-members. You  
> already know (perhaps 'ad nauseam'! ;) ) what I think of the  
> literary stature of this 'sui generis' Lakhota author, so I  
> appreciate very much your giving some serious consideration to his  
> writings! Besten Dank dafür!
>
> I would very much like to discuss this (& many other A-O-H  
> sentences & constructions) further, a little later. In the  
> meantime, what do you make of this attempt at a more literal  
> rendering of A-O-H's Lakhota? :
>
> Emil Afraid-Of-Hawk's Lakhota :
>
> "Hoks^ila kiN thaNchaN kiksuyes^ni hiNgle, thawachiN kiksuyes^ni  
> hiyu k'uN he iyechel, taku iyukcaNpi kta okihipi s^ni ogna  
> kiksuyes^ni. YunkhaN woeye kiN lena ---- ChaNte t'inza yo! --ChaNte  
> t'iNza yo! --- ChaNte t'iNza yo! -- ChaNte t'iNza yo! -- ChaNte  
> t'iNza yo! ---- olowaN ogna chaNcheg^a uN iyaphapi nah^uN kiN uN  
> kiksuya hingle."
>
>
> Ann Nolan Clark's original :
>
> "The boy's body had become numb, senseless to the passing of time  
> as his mind had become numb, senseless to the pain of thinking. The  
> phrase ---- "be brave!" --"be brave!--be brave!---be brave!--be  
> brave! ---- beat into his consciousness with the rhythmic  
> regularity of the pounding of a drum."
>
>
> Another version :
>
> "The boy's body had suddenly become numb, even as his mind had  
> emerged (lit. :'come out of it (the experience)') into  
> insensibility, insensible in the sense (lit. 'by way of/in the  
> manner of') of an incapacity for thought of any kind. And then, all  
> of a sudden he became conscious of hearing the following words ---  
> "Be firm of heart!-- be firm of heart! -- be firm of heart! --be  
> firm of heart!--be firm of heart!" ---- pounded out on a drum in  
> the manner (lit. 'by way of') of a tune. ('in a sing-song way'??)."
>
>
> Hmm, I wonder why he didn't deem it necessary to use "s'e" or  
> "sekse" (i.e. following 'iyaphapi') with that metaphor? Perhaps to  
> emphasize the intensity of the boy's "stunned" state of mind &  
> emotion in his grief at his grandfather's impending death, a kind  
> of giddiness, or temporary derangement of the senses, underlining  
> the virtual reality of the sounds he hears within?
>
>
> Incidentally, I very much like your suggestion of a likely  
> etymological relationship between the roots of kiksuyA ('remember/ 
> call to mind/be mindful, conscious of'), kiksuyes^ni 'insensible/ 
> unaware/unconscious/unfeeling/insensitive', and of ksuyeyA ('hurt/ 
> inflict injury); ksuyayapi ('be hurt/injured'), etc.. That seems  
> fairly persuasive, imho.
> There is also, apparently, a verb : 'waksuyeyA/waksuyewaye' ('HURT  
> people's FEELINGS') on hand to strengthen your case there.
>
> Might that be E. A-O-H's way of rendering at least some flavour of  
> Clark's "senseless to the pain of thinking", which may (possibly)  
> be too 'alien' a metaphor for a Lakhota speaker?
> Could it be as well, that E. A-O-K deemed that other idea :  
> "senseless to the passing of time", excessive, or artistically  
> superfluous in some way?
> I too am wondering why he didn't attempt translation!
> Also that 'ki-' prefix in the B&D's original sense of 'back again'  
> seems to be operating in a similar way to 're-' in 'remember/ 
> remembrance', isn't it?
> Reminds me a little (etymologically) of the French word :  
> "ressentiment", for some reason!
> Do you recall the way Thomas Hobbes once brilliantly defined memory  
> ('Leviathan' (1651): Part 1; ch.2) as "DECAYING SENSE"?
> He went on to characterize "Remembrance" as :
> "Calling to mind : the Latines call it 'Reminiscentia', as it were  
> a Re-conning of our former actions." (ibid. Part 1; ch.3) Wish  
> English was still written like that!

> Lastly, here is an interesting germane passage from another of Emil  
> Afraid-Of-Hawk's translations of Ann NOLAN CLARK.
> It occurs in the beautiful "There Still Are Buffalo" (NahaNh^ci Pte  
> YukhaNpi) (1942), (which I can only characterize, albeit somewhat  
> unscientifically, as a sort of extended poetic rhapsody in praise  
> of the Buffalo's life-cycle & mystical symbolism to the Oyate!)

> Once more, to provide context & to give some idea of the talents of  
> BOTH writers, I will quote at some length : [from Section XV, pp.  
> 68-69] :

> "Waniyetu kin thate h^upahu kin uN
> kiyaN iyopte kiN iyecheca.
> Waniyetu kiN hena iyopta upi.

> Mag^az^us^ni kiN iyokhiheya manita ona thaNka he.
> ChaNkhe waMakas^kaN kiN iyuha pheta ile ye kiN
> kaithokap naphapi,
> kholakichiyapi na thokakichiyapi,
> k'eyas^ ichisakip,
> WACHIGNUNIYAN
> na IC'IKSUYAPI S^NI,
> nipi kta uN he ogna echela,
> inah^ni ichinaphapi.

> YunkhaN uNgnahela mag^az^u ahi.
> YunkhaN WakhaNthaNka/ thais^taminyaNyaNpi kiN uN
> makhoche kiN thaopi s'elecheca kiN uN
> woyazaN kiN asniye kiN he iyecheca.

> Mag^az^u na ohakap icamna ahi....."

Ann NOLAN CLARK's original reads :

"The Years blow by
on the wings of the wind.
The years pass by.

Drought is followed by prairie fire.
The animals run before the flames,
friend and foe,
side by side,
their brains NUMB,
their hearts UNFEELING,
only their instincts to live
urging them onward.

Then rain comes
like the tears
of the Great Mystery,
healing the pain
of the wounded world.

Snow follows rain....."

Alles Gute,

Clive.
>

>
>
>
> On 13/12/2007, at 7:06 AM, Alfred W. Tüting wrote:
>
>>
>> (Replying to Clive's informative quotes I wrote)
>>
>> > As had been already pointed out earlier here, the Siouan  
>> "concept" of "feeling"
>> > (of physical or emotional processes/states) obviously has to do  
>> with "mind",
>> > "will", "knowledge", rather than "emotion", "sensation", "sense  
>> perception".
>> > Hence, _txawat'elya_ is given as "to be willing (sic!) for  
>> anything; desirous
>> > to do or suffer" (also cf. _txawat'elkiya_ - to be willing...)  
>> B.-M.
>> >
>> > Your other examples seem to fit in this concept, where the verbs  
>> _slolkiyA_ -
>> > "to know (sic!) one's own" and _kiksuyA_ - "to remember", "to be  
>> conscious"(!)
>> > are used.
>>
>>
>> Not unlike Clive, I also highly appreciate the great ability and  
>> penmanship of Emil Afraid of Hawk since quite some time (although   
>> I could claim by no means to being able to really judge this  
>> personality's great work!).
>> Searching through his translation of "Brave Against the Enemy" for  
>> further examples of the Dakotan concept of "feeling" I came across  
>> the following reference (quoted in the PDF-file attached below)  
>> where, again, the expression "kiksuyA" can be found, albeit with a  
>> slightly different "hue".
>>
>> As it seems to me, our initial topic, by chance split up in two  
>> threads, might be rooted in the same "soil".
>> I'd appreciate to learn your experts' view?
>>
>> Alfred
>>
>> <Brave against the enemy.pdf>
>

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