AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side

Fri Nov 28 11:14:33 UTC 2008

Hi KJ and list, 

well from my point of view there is no need for any change in this matter. 
smile  

And Andrè, well during my workshops I often understand that the beginners
support themselves with some guidelines that help them to learn with less
insecurity. That is fine  so no problem if they prefer double stemmed
arrows  From the teachers point of view I would not insist too much on this
but just accept their writing ( if they really would write themselves that
would be a tremendous achievement)  At the same time I would follow the
principles we know from other fields of instructions  just do not repeat
what you yourself would judge to be wrong  but instead offer your other
solution. That is the same principle as hearing babys learn to talk and deaf
babys learn to sign. Why not accept special favorite options to beginners
... smile ... no problem with that. 

Within this context  well I have my doubts  perhaps this habit to vote for
double stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching method. Often
SW-instruction courses start with hands parallel to the wall  so all these
movements up and down and circular and diagonal ... are associated with
double stemmed movement arrows. 

It is always a critical point if you have to explain the writing of a flat
hand pointing directly to the right or left  now the participants
understand that it is up to you to see this  hand from top down or from
frontview  and this will lead to the association that if you vote for
frontview you are better of with the double stemmed arrow whereas the single
stemmed arrows would allow only the exact to the right or exact to the left
movement. Advanced and experienced scribes and readers prefer spellings with
a minimum of strokes and circles as long as the idea can be described in
a way that the informed reader understands what is to be performed. 

So no extra regulations needed  smile  

Stefan ;-) 

  _____  

Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
[mailto:sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von KJ
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2008 05:27
An: SignWriting List
Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side

I feel the same way, Stefan - I always write single stemmed arrows for
side-to-side movement.  But it is interesting what Andre had to say... I
didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed arrows with floor plane
handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall plane handshapes.  It makes
sense to me, though!  And if the kids feel it is easier to read when the
arrow stems match the handshape plane, then maybe we should think about
adopting that as a convention... 

KJ

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Stefan Wöhrmann <mailto:stefanwoehrmann at googlemail.com>  

To: 'SignWriting List' <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>  

Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM

Subject: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side

Hi Andrè, 

I agree with Adams comment  it doesnt matter.  smile  From my point of
view  I prefer single stemmed arrows if the movement is directly to the
left or right side. But this attitude developed over time  I guess it is a
matter of clear structure .. . 

Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for top  down or frontview  if a
handorientation allows  both options ... and in the past we discussed this
point that almost always both hands in a sign should be written  (if
possible) from the same point of view ( both hands top down, or both hands
front view) But even here I decide to violate this principle if anything
seems to prevent the reader to understand intuitively and alost without any
hesitation. 

So  my opinion  left and right movement  (if they are meant to be
straight to the left and straight to the right)   c a n   be written with
both arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in these cases I always
vote for the single stemmed arrows.

Stefan ;-) 

  _____  

Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
[mailto:sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Gagnon et
Thibeault
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04
An: SignWriting List
Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side

Hi Adam and everyone,

    Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same.  But Deaf students'thinking is
different from your thinking.  For example, Deaf students develop a
phonological analysis for different SW symbols (hand on the floor or wall
plane and single-stemmed arrow (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall
plane)).  Deaf students found that they are more comfortable to read (B)
than (A) because of the same wall planes.  It is very important for me to
understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for Deaf kids,
not Deaf adults.  For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years old is able to read
(B) more easy than (A) according to Deaf teacher.

    I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and (B) than
younger kids.

    Regards,

    André

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Adam Frost <mailto:icemandeaf at gmail.com>  

To: SignWriting List <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>  

Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM

Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side

The difference between using the single stem arrow and double stem for side
movements is just writers preference. Either is still correct. So (A) and
(B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on the floor plane which is
different from (A) and (B). I am not surprise that the deaf students are
talking about floor and wall planes. ;-)

Adam

On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault" <atg at videotron.ca> wrote:

Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and everyone,

    It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view and a top
view.

    See my attached diagram.  This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE (French) =
INTERDICT (English).  Deaf students are confused to read it because they
stopped reading and figured out it.  Several Deaf students explained that
the two hands are parallel with the front wall (front view), and the
movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor
(top view).   They suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front
wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the double-stemmed
arrows is viewed from the front wall (front view) (See the attached diagram
(B) because Deaf students read it easily (the same front view).  They told
Deaf teacher if they use the two hands which are parallel with the floor,
they use the movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is
viewed from the floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C).  They don't
want to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read it.

    I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the front
view and the top view.

    I adopt Deaf students'proposal.

    Regards,

    André

<SW DEFENDRE.doc>

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