AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side

Anne-Claude Prélaz Girod acpg at VTXNET.CH
Fri Nov 28 11:20:26 UTC 2008


I think the graphic below is really usefull to help understand,....
and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for lateral  
movements
have a nice week-end everyone
Anny

Le 28 nov. 08 à 12:14, Stefan Wöhrmann a écrit :

> Hi KJ and list,
>
> well from my point of view there is no need for any change in this  
> matter. – smile –
>
> And Andrè, well during my workshops I often understand that the  
> beginners support themselves with some guidelines that help them to  
> learn with less insecurity. That is fine – so no problem if they  
> prefer double stemmed arrows – From the teachers point of view I  
> would not insist too much on this but just accept their writing  
> ( if they really would write themselves that would be a tremendous  
> achievement)  At the same time I would follow the principles we  
> know from other fields of instructions – just do not repeat what  
> you yourself would judge to be wrong – but instead offer your  
> “other” solution. That is the same principle as hearing babys  
> learn to talk and deaf babys learn to sign. Why not accept special  
> favorite options to beginners ... smile ... no problem with that.
>
> Within this context – well I have my doubts – perhaps this habit  
> to vote for double stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching  
> method. Often SW-instruction courses start with hands parallel to  
> the wall – so all these movements up and down and circular and  
> diagonal ... are associated with double stemmed movement arrows.
>
>
>
> It is always a critical point if you have to explain the writing of  
> a flat hand pointing directly to the right or left – now the  
> participants understand that it is up to you to see this  hand from  
> top down or from frontview  and this will lead to the association  
> that if you vote for frontview you are better of with the double  
> stemmed arrow whereas the single stemmed arrows would allow only  
> the exact to the right or exact to the left movement. Advanced and  
> experienced scribes and readers prefer spellings with a minimum of  
> “strokes” and “circles” as long as the idea can be described  
> in a way that the “informed reader” understands what is to be  
> performed.
>
>
>
> So no extra regulations needed – smile –
>
>
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
> Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l- 
> bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von KJ
> Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2008 05:27
> An: SignWriting List
> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>
>
>
> I feel the same way, Stefan - I always write single stemmed arrows  
> for side-to-side movement.  But it is interesting what Andre had to  
> say... I didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed arrows  
> with floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall  
> plane handshapes.  It makes sense to me, though!  And if the kids  
> feel it is easier to read when the arrow stems match the handshape  
> plane, then maybe we should think about adopting that as a  
> convention...
>
>
>
> KJ
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Stefan Wöhrmann
>
> To: 'SignWriting List'
>
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM
>
> Subject: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>
>
>
> Hi Andrè,
>
>
>
> I agree with Adams comment – it doesn’t matter. – smile –  
> From my point of view – I prefer single stemmed arrows if the  
> movement is directly to the left or right side. But this attitude  
> developed over time – I guess it is a matter of clear structure .. .
>
>
>
> Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for top – down or frontview   
> if a  handorientation allows  both options ... and in the past we  
> discussed this point that almost always both hands in a sign should  
> be written – (if possible) from the same point of view ( both  
> hands top down, or both hands front view) But even here I decide to  
> violate this “principle” if anything seems to prevent the reader  
> to understand intuitively and alost without any hesitation.
>
>
>
> So – my opinion – left and right movement – (if they are meant  
> to be straight to the left and straight to the right)   c a n   be  
> written with both arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in  
> these cases I always vote for the single stemmed arrows.
>
>
>
>
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l- 
> bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Gagnon et Thibeault
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04
> An: SignWriting List
> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>
>
>
> Hi Adam and everyone,
>
>
>
>     Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same.  But Deaf  
> students'thinking is different from your thinking.  For example,  
> Deaf students develop a phonological analysis for different SW  
> symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow  
> (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)).  Deaf  
> students found that they are more comfortable to read (B) than (A)  
> because of the same wall planes.  It is very important for me to  
> understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for  
> Deaf kids, not Deaf adults.  For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years  
> old is able to read (B) more easy than (A) according to Deaf teacher.
>
>
>
>     I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and  
> (B) than younger kids.
>
>
>
>     Regards,
>
>
>
>     André
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Adam Frost
>
> To: SignWriting List
>
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>
>
>
> The difference between using the single stem arrow and double stem  
> for side movements is just writers preference. Either is still  
> correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on  
> the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am not  
> surprise that the deaf students are talking about floor and wall  
> planes. ;-)
>
>
>
> Adam
>
> On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault"  
> <atg at videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>>     It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view  
>> and a top view.
>>
>>
>>
>>     See my attached diagram.  This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE  
>> (French) = INTERDICT (English).  Deaf students are confused to  
>> read it because they stopped reading and figured out it.  Several  
>> Deaf students explained that the two hands are parallel with the  
>> front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the  
>> single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor (top view).   They  
>> suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front wall  
>> (front view), and the movement to the side with the double-stemmed  
>> arrows is viewed from the front wall (front view) (See the  
>> attached diagram (B) because Deaf students read it easily (the  
>> same front view).  They told Deaf teacher if they use the two  
>> hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the movement to  
>> the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the  
>> floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C).  They don't want  
>> to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the  
>> front view and the top view.
>>
>>
>>
>>     I adopt Deaf students'proposal.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>     André
>>
>>
>>
>> <SW DEFENDRE.doc>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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