MN and Canada, soda, etc.

[Beverly Flanigan]

On "Fargo":  The peripatetic crooks spend a very brief time in Fargo, ND,
as I recall; the main action of the film takes place on the route between
Brainerd and Mpls (or St. Paul?).

But "eh" is very common in southern MN, at least in my SW part.  It's more
of a confirmatory tag question for me, like "So you went there, did
you?"--> "You went there, eh?" which might more likely be "huh?"
elsewhere.  I've never heard it used as a "filler," though perhaps that's
what distinguishes the Canadian usage?  And "ish" long ago became "ick" for
me, only because I dislike the sound symbolism of the former--a purely
aesthetic reason.

(Millie, you should join the ADS!  Look on the website.)

At 12:33 AM 8/14/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I wanted to point out long ago that "hotdish" is still tremendously common,
>and not even a self-conscious usage among the people I hear using it (church
>potlucks, 4th of July picnics, American Legion bars, etc.).  I believe "eh"
>is becoming much more common in Minnesota, although I don't think I have
>heard it used naturally South of about St Cloud.
>
>My "ou" sounds a lot like [o], and hardly ever like [auw], and I have not
>lived in Minnesota for any length of time in over twelve years.  When I am
>tired, relaxed, or slightly inebriated (yes, slightly), my pronunciation pf
>almost any word with the sound usually spelled "ou" falls somewhere between
>the "oa" in "boat", and the somewhat rounder (?) one people are labelling
>"aboot".  It is quite an active shift among St Paul natives, as far as I can
>tell.  I think the much more urban tone of Mpls in general may be why their
>experience of these changes is so very different.  One of my brothers-in-law
>comes from a family swimming in farmers (and my sister and he still farm
>also, as do their children).  Most of the farmers I ever hear speak much
>sound a lot more like St Paulites than they do like Minneapolitans.
>
>As for "ish"?  I had no idea that was a Minnesota-only thing (and there,
>mostly female) until my younger sister went to the UP for undergrad and was
>roundly chastised as hopelessly Minnesotan for saying it.  Not that either
>of us consider being hopelessly Minnesotan a bad thing....  I still say
>"ish" all the time (well, not all the time, but usually instead of "yuck"
>and the like).  My children (7, 5, 3) are even starting to say it, and they
>were born in Michigan and now live in Wisconsin.
>
>I did not see Fargo.  I know, I know: "traitor", "fiend" and so on ...  But
>I have to ask.  Their Fargo is supposed to be in Minnesota?  That was
>confusing me, because the real Fargo is in North Dakota, and Moorhead is in
>Minnesota.  It sounds to me like any of the speech foibles in Fargo that
>anyone is doubting are Minnesotan, can be easily accounted for by North
>Dakota and Manitoba.  After all, Fargo/Moorhead is barely in Minnesota....
>
>One more thing.  At least as recently as the 1990 census, although I still
>have not checked the 2000 one: the number one ethnic group in St Paul ( at
>least) was German, #2 was Irish, #3 Norwegian, and #4 Swedish.  People tend
>to combine Norwegian and Swedish, and thus conclude "Scandinavian" is the
>biggest group.  Most Swedes and Norwegians can get very irate when you lump
>them into one group.  There were also more Hispanics than African-Americans,
>more Hmong than Hispanics, and more Native Americans than Hmong.  That
>balance may have changed somewhat.  But the fact remains that even St Paul
>(with its reputation for being White and Middle Class) is pretty diverse in
>its Midwestern "sameness".  ;-)
>
>I read the book How to Speak Minnesotan, and felt like I was home again.
>Most of it was pretty darn accurate, for the Minnesota I grew up in (native
>St Paul, and mixture of rural areas from all over the state).  And the "eh"
>thing is almost exclusively in Northern (Northern one-half anyway)
>Minnesota.  I beg to differ that it means, "Isn't that right".  Seems to me
>it is more like the "ya know" that so many people fill in the end of their
>sentences (or phrases) with.  Sort of like "like" in the non-quotative
>sense.  And, I talk very fast.  But then again, I have been told that is
>atypical, and it is something many people comment on when I pause for
>breath.
>
>I'm done now (I think--Remember the "Minnesota long goodbye?...").  Tell me
>why I am wrong, please.
>  :-)
>
>PS -- I would love a copy of your article, Fritz.  I heard "borrow" for lend
>all the time.  But I have heard it across Michigan a lot too.  It always
>seemed to me to be more of a (socioeconomic) "class" issue than anything
>else.  Does your article bring up "binders" as rubber bands?  I still use
>that one all the time too.  People look at me like I'm nuts though.  I think
>in response, I have switched mostly to "rubber binders".
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 11:16 AM
>Subject: Re: How we spent our Canadian vacation
>
>
> > At 04:47 PM 8/12/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > Actually, you're right--'a boat' is closer to what I hear in my Minnesota
> > nieces than 'aboot', although one niece is moving darn close to
> > 'aboot'.  There's a continuum of vowel shifting there that's hard to
> > pinpoint, but it's definitely not my 1940s /au/.
> >
> > 'Hotdish', (date etc.) bars, and 'uffda' are still common, but I eschew
> > 'ishy'--when my sister says it I cringe.  But I don't get the point of
> > 'borrow' (= lend? I never heard that usage), 'topper', and 'sliding'--?  I
> > would very much appreciate a copy of your article!
> >
> >
> > >My impression is that most rural Minnesotans do not have Canadian raising
>in
> > >'about'.  To my ear the MN version sounded more like 'a boat' than
>'aboot'
> > >(which is a stereotypical, but not accurate, spelling of the Canadian
> > >pronunciation.).  Of course, close to the border,  many Minnesotans
>probably
> > >do have the genuine 'Canadian' pronunciation.
> > >A few years ago I wrote a popular article on Minnesota speech (that's
>popular
> > >in the sense of non-scholarly--not that it gained widespread popularity).
>It
> > >appeared in:
> > >Book of Virtues: The College of Fine Arts and Humanities.  Compendium
> > >1997-98.  St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud MN.  Edited by Sharon
> > >Cogdill.  pp.132-135.
> > >
> > >I discuss some grammar and pronunciation, as well as many vocab items,
> > >including hotdish, bars, Uff da, ish(y), borrow, topper, beach, brat,
>rubber
> > >binder, and sliding.
> > >
> > >If anyone is interested, I might be able to find a copy on disk and send
>it
> > >to them electronically.
> > >
> > >Fritz Juengling
> > >A Webfoot who swatted mosquitoes for 8 years.