hock/hawk (again)

Millie Webb millie-webb at CHARTER.NET
Wed Jul 17 23:57:04 UTC 2002


I cannot say I have NEVER noticed the hock/hawk thing sounding the same for
some people, but I maintain that most of my family (I have seven siblings,
ages 31 to 48, all married [some to non-Minnesotans], and four of them still
living in the Cities, one in Rural MN), all of whom still distinguish the
two sounds about ninety percent of the time ("misspeaks happen" obviously).
Both of my parents use them both too, with my mom born and raised in St
Paul, leaving for about ten years (Chicago and south-central Michigan), and
returning for the next forty years.  My dad has lived in the Cities for
those last forty years.  But he isn't a great example, I presume -- the
"poor man" still says "Ay-talian" for "Italian" because his dad from South
Carolina always said it that way.  He was born and raised in Battle Creek,
Michigan, btw.  His language is all mixed up in many ways one would never
expect from someone who hardly ever moved his whole life.

"but Inyway"... .   I find the Chicago lengthening and nasalization of the
[a] in "hockey" annoying for a variety of personal reasons -- not the least
if which is that my first roommate in Michigan spoke very very loudly, with
a lot of nasalization, and did that with every vowel possible.  She was very
annoying most of the time.  Thus, the association for me, I suppose.

Yes, St Paul is usually written with just the St and not "Saint".  But
mostly (IMHO) because it is quicker, I think.  I have never seen or heard
anything about it being only acceptable one way or the other.  I went to
Macalester College in St Paul, and they almost always wrote out "Saint" in
every return/contact address I ever saw when I was around there (though they
may not anymore).  The newspapers generally write "St." or "St", but again,
I think it is because it is shorter. I usually write it out when typing,
because too many spelling programs get tripped up on "St" with no period,
which is how I am used to seeing it written in many cases locally (in the
Cities).

Laurence, thanks for comments on the subject/object pronoun thing.  I knew I
did not like my rule much for some reason, but I did not have the time right
then to think of better phrasing.  I do still think it is hypercorrection,
by the way.  Which would usually mean it is inconsistent, wouldn't it?  Do
you know John Lawler in Ann Arbor?  Your posting style reminds me of his "so
many years ago...".
-- Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: hock/hawk (again)


> At 11:54 AM 7/16/2002 -0500, Millie Webb wrote:
>
>  >As for the hock/hawk thing, I was born and raised in Saint Paul , all
the
>  >way through college.  I have always distinguished between Don/Dawn,
>  >hock/hawk and palm/pom pairs.  I cannot claim I precisely "pronounce"
the
>  >'l' in "palm", but the vowel is definitely longer, and the 'l' creeps
in --
>  >even on a spectrogram (I have checked).  I find it annoying when people
say
>  >"hockey" like it's spelled "hahcky" though too.  In my experience, the
>  >people from Chicaahhhgo are the ones who do that, and pronounce
don=dawn.
>  >Then again, I have always been interested in language (since childhood),
and
>  >take on the accents of the people around me very easily, whether I mean
to
>  >or not (trust me, it happens to me all the time).  If I am extremely
relaxed
>  >and talking fast, I am told you can still hear that I am from Minnesota
>  >pretty easily.
>
> As a Minnesotan who just got back from a few days with the family, I can
> attest (with earlier writers) that the /a~O/ distinction is just about
gone
> in younger Minnesotans.  One 40-something niece still has it, but her
> sister doesn't, and none of their kids have the split.  Mpls/St. Paul is
> most advanced in the merger; after 50 years in the Cities even my
> 70-year-old brother has it before /t/ (predictably triggering merger
first,
> if I recall J.C. Wells' order correctly), while my sister and I don't.  I
> have no distinction between 'palm tree' and 'pom' though--no /l/ or
> lengthening in the first; however, the 'palm of my hand'  has a backer
> vowel--not quite to 'thought' but more like British 'lot' (to cite Wells'
> sets again).
>
> By "hahcky" I assume you're referring to the front vowel raising common in
> the Northern Cities Shift.  But why is it "annoying"?
>
> BTW, I don't see the name of the city spelled "Saint" Paul very often.  In
> St. Louis, the full spelling was reserved for Saint Louis University (as
if
> commemorating the French king/saint, although I don't know if that was the
> original intent of the name in 1819; SLU's symbol is the fleur-de-lis,
plus
> that crazy Billiken).  Isn't this distinction generally kept in St. Paul
too?



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