WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")

[Thomas Paikeday]

dInIs,

I look forward to wrapping this up at a personal meeting, hopefully in this
world rather than the next. Now, that's irony, not sarcasm!

TOM.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> >If sarcasm is patronizing, OK. It is of course l-vocalizers who are
> >prejudiced against by the so-called mainstream speakers so I was
> >just ribbin y'all a bit. Looks like it may be to hard for y'all
> >so-called standard speakers to handle.
>
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>
>
> >Very patronizing and befuddling, IMHO!
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:29 AM
> >Subject: Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
> >
> >
> >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
> >header -----------------------
> >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> >>  Subject:      Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
>
>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >-----
> >>
> >>  I don't deny that there are plenty of nonstandard speakers (as I
> >>  prefaced all my remarks identifying) who do not l-vocalize. I think
> >>  I was even sympathetic. Perhaps I should have continued to say "in
> >>  those dialects which l-vocalize" in front of every assertion. Guess
> >>  it seemed unnecessary.
> >>
> >>  dInIs
> >>
> >>
> >>  >I deny Dennis Preston's major premise, "salva caritate" that is!
> >>  >
> >>  >What happens in cases where "barrel" and "barrow" don't fall
together?
> >You
> >>  >can't deny the existence of something that exists for millions of
people
> >>  >just because it doesn't exist for you. Why not also deny the
existence of
> >>  >other people themselves because even if they argue they exist because
> >they
> >>  >think or for whatever other reason, that's not existence for you.
Does
> >>  >"dInIs" exist in name or in person?
> >>  >
> >>  >T.M.P.
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >----- Original Message -----
> >>  >From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> >>  >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  >Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:06 PM
> >>  >Subject: Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
> >>  >header -----------------------
> >>  >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  >>  Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> >>  >>  Subject:      Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
> >>
>
   -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-
> >>  >-----
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  Tom is  wrong. As I showed in my previous post, after 'barrel' and
> >>  >>  'barrow' fall together, there is absolutely nothing to keep one
from
> >>  >>  being heard as the other (with the exception of the lexical
frequency
> >>  >>  and familiarity facts larry has touched on and which I happily
> >>  >>  concede).
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  On the second point, I believe I showed this "lapse" (sigh!)
> >specifically.
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  dInIs
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  >1. I don't think ease of pronunciation has anything to do with
the
> >>  >>  >barrow/barrel confusion; it may have more to do with how the
words
> >are
> >>  >heard
> >>  >>  >spoken. Also, whereas "barrel" is heard as "barrow" by me and
lots of
> >>  >>  >English users from my linguistic background (no questions allowed
> >about
> >>  >this
> >>  >>  >murky issue please!) the reverse doesn't seem possible, i.e,
"barrow"
> >is
> >>  >not
> >>  >>  >heard as "barrel."
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >2. Incidentally, the variant pronunciation of "barrow" as
(BAIR.uh,
> >in my
> >>  >>  >transcription) given in dictionaries compiled in the mid-1900's
> >(Kenyon &
> >>  >>  >Knott, 1953, probably influenced by Webster's Third, 1961) -- how
> >common
> >>  >is
> >>  >>  >it in current North American English? Does everyone say a
compound
> >word
> >>  >such
> >>  >>  >as "wheel barrow" as (WHEEL.bair.oh) all the time or, esp. in
rapid
> >>  >>  >conversational style, lapse into (WHEEL.bair.uh)?
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >TOM
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >----- Original Message -----
> >>  >>  >From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >>  >>  >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  >>  >Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 11:17 AM
> >>  >>  >Subject: Re: wheel barrels?
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
> >>  >>  >header -----------------------
> >  > >>  >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society
<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  >>  >>  Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >>  >>  >>  Subject:      Re: wheel barrels?
> >>  >>
> >>
>
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>  >-
> >>  >>  >-----
> >>  >>  >>
> >>  >>  >>  At 10:41 AM -0400 8/11/04, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
> >>  >>  >>  >Bethany,
> >>  >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >>  >FWIW, here is my explanation of why you hear "wheel barrow"
as
> >"wheel
> >>  >>  >>  >barrel":
> >>  >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >>  >The "l" sound in that position is rounded, so is "w". The
> >"-ow"/"-el"
> >>  >>  >>  >confusion, I believe, is borne out in similar phonetic
contexts
> >>  >including
> >>  >>  >>  >"-al", "-il", "-ol", -"ul", and "-yl" if someone will supply
> >examples
> >>  >in
> >>  >>  >>  >support of or against this claim by a non-phonetician.
> >>  >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >>  >TOM PAIKEDAY
> >>  >>  >>  >www.paikeday.net
> >>  >>  >>
> >>  >>  >>  Tom, I'm not sure I buy this, however persuasive the phonetic
> >>  >>  >argumentation.
> >>  >>  >>
> >>  >>  >>  My wife purchased a wheelbarrow earlier this summer and since
then
> >>  >>  >>  has referred to it consistently as a wheelbarrel.  (This
surprised
> >me
> >>  >>  >>  because she's from Greenwich, CT and doesn't have all that
many
> >>  >  > >>  "folk" pronunciations in her dialect.)  I just checked and
she
> >>  >>  >>  confirmed that she (like others who have commented) would
always
> >>  >>  >>  *spell* it as "wheelbarrow" but usually *pronounces* it as
> >>  >>  >>  wheelbarrel.  She claims (essentially like Tom) that it's
"easier
> >to
> >>  >>  >>  say" as 'barrel", but when I grilled her on whether she'd say
"bow
> >>  >>  >>  and arrel" because it's easier than saying "bow and arrow",
she
> >>  >>  >>  acknowledged she'd be extremely unlikely to do so.  So I think
the
> >>  >>  >>  folk etymological link with "barrel" is crucial in the former
> >case,
> >>  >>  >>  whatever the phonetic motivation.
> >>  >>  >>
> >>  >>  >>  Larry
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  --
> >>  >>  Dennis R. Preston
> >>  >>  University Distinguished Professor
> >>  >>  Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
> >>  >>          Asian and African Languages
> >>  >>  Wells Hall A-740
> >>  >>  Michigan State University
> >>  >>  East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
> >>  >>  Office: (517) 353-0740
> >>  >>  Fax: (517) 432-2736
> >>
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  Dennis R. Preston
> >>  University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
> >>  Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
> >Languages
> >>  A-740 Wells Hall
> >>  Michigan State University
> >>  East Lansing, MI 48824
> >>  Phone: (517) 432-3099
> >>  Fax: (517) 432-2736
> >>  preston at msu.edu