WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
Dennis R. Preston
preston at MSU.EDU
Thu Aug 12 19:21:17 UTC 2004
>If sarcasm is patronizing, OK. It is of course l-vocalizers who are
>prejudiced against by the so-called mainstream speakers so I was
>just ribbin y'all a bit. Looks like it may be to hard for y'all
>so-called standard speakers to handle.
dInIs
>Very patronizing and befuddling, IMHO!
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:29 AM
>Subject: Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
>
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>> Subject: Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
>>
>> I don't deny that there are plenty of nonstandard speakers (as I
>> prefaced all my remarks identifying) who do not l-vocalize. I think
>> I was even sympathetic. Perhaps I should have continued to say "in
>> those dialects which l-vocalize" in front of every assertion. Guess
>> it seemed unnecessary.
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>>
>> >I deny Dennis Preston's major premise, "salva caritate" that is!
>> >
>> >What happens in cases where "barrel" and "barrow" don't fall together?
>You
>> >can't deny the existence of something that exists for millions of people
>> >just because it doesn't exist for you. Why not also deny the existence of
>> >other people themselves because even if they argue they exist because
>they
>> >think or for whatever other reason, that's not existence for you. Does
>> >"dInIs" exist in name or in person?
>> >
>> >T.M.P.
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:06 PM
>> >Subject: Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
>> >
>> >
>> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>> >header -----------------------
>> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>> >> Subject: Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>> >-----
>> >>
>> >> Tom is wrong. As I showed in my previous post, after 'barrel' and
>> >> 'barrow' fall together, there is absolutely nothing to keep one from
>> >> being heard as the other (with the exception of the lexical frequency
>> >> and familiarity facts larry has touched on and which I happily
>> >> concede).
>> >>
>> >> On the second point, I believe I showed this "lapse" (sigh!)
>specifically.
>> >>
>> >> dInIs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >1. I don't think ease of pronunciation has anything to do with the
>> >> >barrow/barrel confusion; it may have more to do with how the words
>are
>> >heard
>> >> >spoken. Also, whereas "barrel" is heard as "barrow" by me and lots of
>> >> >English users from my linguistic background (no questions allowed
>about
>> >this
>> >> >murky issue please!) the reverse doesn't seem possible, i.e, "barrow"
>is
>> >not
>> >> >heard as "barrel."
>> >> >
>> >> >2. Incidentally, the variant pronunciation of "barrow" as (BAIR.uh,
>in my
>> >> >transcription) given in dictionaries compiled in the mid-1900's
>(Kenyon &
>> >> >Knott, 1953, probably influenced by Webster's Third, 1961) -- how
>common
>> >is
>> >> >it in current North American English? Does everyone say a compound
>word
>> >such
>> >> >as "wheel barrow" as (WHEEL.bair.oh) all the time or, esp. in rapid
>> >> >conversational style, lapse into (WHEEL.bair.uh)?
>> >> >
>> >> >TOM
>> >> >
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> >> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> >Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 11:17 AM
>> >> >Subject: Re: wheel barrels?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>> >> >header -----------------------
> > >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> >> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: wheel barrels?
>> >>
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >-
>> >> >-----
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At 10:41 AM -0400 8/11/04, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>> >> >> >Bethany,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >FWIW, here is my explanation of why you hear "wheel barrow" as
>"wheel
>> >> >> >barrel":
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The "l" sound in that position is rounded, so is "w". The
>"-ow"/"-el"
>> >> >> >confusion, I believe, is borne out in similar phonetic contexts
>> >including
>> >> >> >"-al", "-il", "-ol", -"ul", and "-yl" if someone will supply
>examples
>> >in
>> >> >> >support of or against this claim by a non-phonetician.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >TOM PAIKEDAY
>> >> >> >www.paikeday.net
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tom, I'm not sure I buy this, however persuasive the phonetic
>> >> >argumentation.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My wife purchased a wheelbarrow earlier this summer and since then
>> >> >> has referred to it consistently as a wheelbarrel. (This surprised
>me
>> >> >> because she's from Greenwich, CT and doesn't have all that many
>> > > >> "folk" pronunciations in her dialect.) I just checked and she
>> >> >> confirmed that she (like others who have commented) would always
>> >> >> *spell* it as "wheelbarrow" but usually *pronounces* it as
>> >> >> wheelbarrel. She claims (essentially like Tom) that it's "easier
>to
>> >> >> say" as 'barrel", but when I grilled her on whether she'd say "bow
>> >> >> and arrel" because it's easier than saying "bow and arrow", she
>> >> >> acknowledged she'd be extremely unlikely to do so. So I think the
>> >> >> folk etymological link with "barrel" is crucial in the former
>case,
>> >> >> whatever the phonetic motivation.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Larry
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Dennis R. Preston
>> >> University Distinguished Professor
>> >> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>> >> Asian and African Languages
>> >> Wells Hall A-740
>> >> Michigan State University
>> >> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>> >> Office: (517) 353-0740
>> >> Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
>Languages
>> A-740 Wells Hall
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing, MI 48824
>> Phone: (517) 432-3099
>> Fax: (517) 432-2736
>> preston at msu.edu
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