WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")

[Thomas Paikeday]

Very patronizing and befuddling, IMHO!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> I don't deny that there are plenty of nonstandard speakers (as I
> prefaced all my remarks identifying) who do not l-vocalize. I think
> I was even sympathetic. Perhaps I should have continued to say "in
> those dialects which l-vocalize" in front of every assertion. Guess
> it seemed unnecessary.
>
> dInIs
>
>
> >I deny Dennis Preston's major premise, "salva caritate" that is!
> >
> >What happens in cases where "barrel" and "barrow" don't fall together?
You
> >can't deny the existence of something that exists for millions of people
> >just because it doesn't exist for you. Why not also deny the existence of
> >other people themselves because even if they argue they exist because
they
> >think or for whatever other reason, that's not existence for you. Does
> >"dInIs" exist in name or in person?
> >
> >T.M.P.
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:06 PM
> >Subject: Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
> >
> >
> >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
> >header -----------------------
> >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> >>  Subject:      Re: WHEEL.bair.uh? (was "wheel barrels?")
>
>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >-----
> >>
> >>  Tom is  wrong. As I showed in my previous post, after 'barrel' and
> >>  'barrow' fall together, there is absolutely nothing to keep one from
> >>  being heard as the other (with the exception of the lexical frequency
> >>  and familiarity facts larry has touched on and which I happily
> >>  concede).
> >>
> >>  On the second point, I believe I showed this "lapse" (sigh!)
specifically.
> >>
> >>  dInIs
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  >1. I don't think ease of pronunciation has anything to do with the
> >>  >barrow/barrel confusion; it may have more to do with how the words
are
> >heard
> >>  >spoken. Also, whereas "barrel" is heard as "barrow" by me and lots of
> >>  >English users from my linguistic background (no questions allowed
about
> >this
> >>  >murky issue please!) the reverse doesn't seem possible, i.e, "barrow"
is
> >not
> >>  >heard as "barrel."
> >>  >
> >>  >2. Incidentally, the variant pronunciation of "barrow" as (BAIR.uh,
in my
> >>  >transcription) given in dictionaries compiled in the mid-1900's
(Kenyon &
> >>  >Knott, 1953, probably influenced by Webster's Third, 1961) -- how
common
> >is
> >>  >it in current North American English? Does everyone say a compound
word
> >such
> >>  >as "wheel barrow" as (WHEEL.bair.oh) all the time or, esp. in rapid
> >>  >conversational style, lapse into (WHEEL.bair.uh)?
> >>  >
> >>  >TOM
> >>  >
> >>  >----- Original Message -----
> >>  >From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >>  >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  >Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 11:17 AM
> >>  >Subject: Re: wheel barrels?
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
> >>  >header -----------------------
> >>  >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  >>  Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >>  >>  Subject:      Re: wheel barrels?
> >>
>
   -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-
> >>  >-----
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  At 10:41 AM -0400 8/11/04, Thomas Paikeday wrote:
> >>  >>  >Bethany,
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >FWIW, here is my explanation of why you hear "wheel barrow" as
"wheel
> >>  >>  >barrel":
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >The "l" sound in that position is rounded, so is "w". The
"-ow"/"-el"
> >>  >>  >confusion, I believe, is borne out in similar phonetic contexts
> >including
> >>  >>  >"-al", "-il", "-ol", -"ul", and "-yl" if someone will supply
examples
> >in
> >>  >>  >support of or against this claim by a non-phonetician.
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >TOM PAIKEDAY
> >>  >>  >www.paikeday.net
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  Tom, I'm not sure I buy this, however persuasive the phonetic
> >>  >argumentation.
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  My wife purchased a wheelbarrow earlier this summer and since then
> >>  >>  has referred to it consistently as a wheelbarrel.  (This surprised
me
> >>  >>  because she's from Greenwich, CT and doesn't have all that many
> >  > >>  "folk" pronunciations in her dialect.)  I just checked and she
> >>  >>  confirmed that she (like others who have commented) would always
> >>  >>  *spell* it as "wheelbarrow" but usually *pronounces* it as
> >>  >>  wheelbarrel.  She claims (essentially like Tom) that it's "easier
to
> >>  >>  say" as 'barrel", but when I grilled her on whether she'd say "bow
> >>  >>  and arrel" because it's easier than saying "bow and arrow", she
> >>  >>  acknowledged she'd be extremely unlikely to do so.  So I think the
> >>  >>  folk etymological link with "barrel" is crucial in the former
case,
> >>  >>  whatever the phonetic motivation.
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  Larry
> >>
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  Dennis R. Preston
> >>  University Distinguished Professor
> >>  Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
> >>          Asian and African Languages
> >>  Wells Hall A-740
> >>  Michigan State University
> >>  East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
> >>  Office: (517) 353-0740
> >>  Fax: (517) 432-2736
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
Languages
> A-740 Wells Hall
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824
> Phone: (517) 432-3099
> Fax: (517) 432-2736
> preston at msu.edu