French vs. "red" and "orange" (off-topic)

[Sam Clements]

If I've got it correct, the word "orange" is cited in the OED PRIOR to the
word "tawny."

Here's a message I posted some time ago over at the Straight Dope Message
Board about this.  I'll link to the thread, if anyone is
interested--http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=244189&page
=1&pp=50

>>So much is being made of dates and words as cited in the OED, let's just
look and see:

First off, you can flush the notion that the color is first cited in 1620.
True, it was used as an adjective, but it came from the attributive use of
the noun, much as the word/color olive developed:

Quote:
      1542 Inv. R. Wardr. (1815) 104 Item thrie peces of courtingis for the
chepell of oringe hew. 1620 Unton Inv. 22 Two low stooles of black and
oringe wrought velvett.

So, there's a use of the word 'oringe' in 1542, predating tenne.

Quote:
      1562 LEIGH Armorie 19 Now to the sixth coloure, whiche we calle
Tawney, and is blazed by thys woorde, Tenne. It is a worshipfull colour, and
is of some Herhaughtes called Bruske,..it is made of two bright colours
which is Redde and Yellowe.

So [i]tawney[/b] was a mixture of bright redde and yellowe. Could be orange.

Just one more, as a teaser.
Quote:
      1561 HOLLYBUSH Hom. Apoth. 35 Yalow as an *Orenge appel.

(Orenge appel) meant the fruit "orange" in that sentence. But the writer
said it was yellow as an orange. So perhaps not all oranges were perceived
as "orange" color at that time.<<

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter" <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: French vs. "red" and "orange" (off-topic)


> Just because people can distinguish between red and orange, or a
one-wheeled and a two-wheeled barrow, when they have to doesn't mean that
they have distinct words ready to hand. Before the appearance of "orange" as
a color name in English, they had to make do with "tawny" (not as precise)
or "red" or "yellow" (not very precise either).
>
> "Red like a rose," one assumes (always dangerous), could be distinguished
from "red like the sun," "red like gold,"  "yellow like that flower," etc.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: French vs. "red" and "orange" (off-topic)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> About 35 years ago, I read, in a book on color terms in language,
> something to the effect that French color words do not distinguish
> "red" from "orange." Several years later, I met a woman who was a
> native speaker of Parisian French. When I asked her about the lack of
> distinction between "red" and "orange" in French, her reply was that of
> course French can distinguish between "red" and "orange." Pourquoi pas?
> As I was turning away, disappointed in my expectations, she continued,
> "A funny thing, though. My father is an artist and you'd expect that he
> would know better. But he thinks that red and orange are the same
> color!"
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
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