saving the world

Mon Dec 4 17:43:32 UTC 2006

I don't mean to be making threats here, but if this list were to be
limited to ADS members I would be heard from no more, since I have no
intention of paying to become a card-carrying member of ADS.

Personally, I am a prescriptivist at heart, but years ago, in college, a
friend explained to me the folly of shovelling shit against the tide, so
I now merely deplore inwardly the ignorance and folly of other
English-speakers.  And let those who will deplore my ignorance and
folly, so long as they do it inwardly, too.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Monday, December 4, 2006 12:02 pm
Subject: Re: saving the world

> I agree with Jerry but will nitpick as follows:
>
>  We are all descriptivists, but to the extent that we endorse,
> through daily practice and example, conventional orthography,
> usage, and syntax, we're all prescriptivists too. Just ask our
> students !
>
>  What we've learned, through professional training and experience,
> is not to condemn dialectal pronunciations. Some of the more
> cantankerous, like myself, occasionally go so far as to criticize
> an extreme case of innovation that seems like a hindrance to
> broader communication, but we do so without any intent or
> expectation of imposing some form of "linguistic morality."
> Differences are different, and the few that may be confusing or
> potentially embarrassing ought to be discouraged simply as a
> practical matter. But what even more prescriptive pedagogues have
> had to say in earlier eras about their pet linguistic peeves has
> exerted no evident influence on actual usage by "regular people."
>
>  Moreover, "prescriptivism" has come to mean outright condemnation
> more than mere "prescribing," coupled with severe social penalties
> for those who won't "tote the line" (goak: see an earlier post).
> None of us are (or should/ shall I say "is" ?) in favor of that, at
> least not outside the English comp classroom, where basic
> competence in writing (not conversing) has got to be taught if our
> literate civilization is to keep muddling through.
>
>  If the tone on this list is sometimes more light-hearted or even
> facetious than elsewhere,
>  it's only because certain topics cry out for such treatment.
>
>  To people like me.
>
>  JL
>
>
>
>  "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote:
>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------
> -------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
> Subject: Re: saving the world
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
>
> I'll try answering Susan Bart's message below. ------ Ads-l is a =
> forum for discussing a very wide range of topics pertaining to the =
> English language in all its varieties. Dialectal features are
> included, =
> of course, but there's also etymology, modern usage, stylistics,
> early =
> attestations, etc. etc. etc. I believe there are some four hundred =
> members, and the beauty of the list is its wide =
> representation--geographically, academically (independent scholars
> too), =
> and with regard to interests and life experiences. The result is an =
> enormously valuable exhange of information, and much of it deserves
> to =
> be compiled, polished a bit and published. I'm trying to make my
> own =
> contribution in this regard with the etymological discussions.
> =20
> Every so often someone presents an offbeat idea (I do so myself =
> occasionally), and it doesn't take long for a correcting response
> to =
> straighten things out. Mr. Zurinskas has been more persistent than
> most =
> in propounding his point of view, and for at least several weeks =
> numerous ads-l members showed considerable patience in correcting
> his =
> various basic errors---all to no avail. Meanwhile, patience has =
> eventually worn thin, and that's the point when Ms. Bart joined the =
> list.
> =20
> In the nine years or so I've been on this list there has been only =
> one instance of a participant being excluded due to a gross breach
> of =
> netiquette. (He evidentally was mentally unbalanced and started
> sending =
> incoherent messages laced with profanity.) I don't think the
> present =
> case warrants such drastic action. Instead, either Mr. Zurinskas
> should =
> on his own realize that he has pushed his discussion on this matter
> as =
> far as it will go; he might consider retiring gracefully from ads-l
> to =
> find like-minded prescriptivists with whom to continue his
> discussion. =
> Those of us on ads-l are by conviction descriptivists and Mr.
> Zurinskas =
> is a committed presciptivist. From the exchange of messages over
> the =
> past several weeks it is clear there is really no room for a
> fruitful =
> exchange of information/opinions.
> =20
> On the off-chance that Mr. Zurinskas persists in sending messages, =
> I'd suggest following Ron Butters' recommendation to ignore them. =
> Members have the option of responding of course, but for most of us
> the =
> guidance should be to simply move on from this topic.
> =20
> Gerald Cohen
> Professor of German and Russian
> editor, Comments on Etymology
> University of Missouri-Rolla
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Susan Burt
> Sent: Mon 12/4/2006 6:47 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: saving the world
>
>
>
> Hello, Everyone,
>
> I am new to this list--been on it for about 3 or 4 weeks, perhaps. I
> had just accepted the post of "Midwest secretary" of the ADS, and
> thought I should be at least listening in on this list. So, Beverly's
> call for reform (below) and several of the messages have made me
> wonderwhat kind of list this is, and whether the messages I have
> seen over
> the past weeks are typical or whether I have just come in at a bad
> time. Are there moderators? What do they do? What are the goals of
> this list? The only other list I am on is the LINGUIST list--and this
> seems very different (I suspect one difference may be that their
> moderators are paid, though probably not much).
>
> This real linguist (though not dialectologist), and dues-paying ADS
> member would welcome non-flaming enlightening comments.
>
> thanks, everyone,
>
> Susan
>
>
>
> On Dec 3, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Beverly Flanigan
> > Subject: Re: saving the world
> > =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> > --------
> >
> >
> > I for one am getting tired of this kind of ranting on what was
> set up
> > to be
> > a neutral, objective, real-language-based listserv dedicated to the
> > principles of the 100-year-old-plus American Dialect Society. Are
> you> aware of the ADS and what it stands for? Are you a member? Now
> I'm> ranting! But instead of ignoring these misguided missives, I'm
> going> to
> > renew the call of some years ago that we restrict subscription to
> this> listserv to those who are paying members of the ADS or who at
> least> have
> > serious and unbiased contributions to make. And I'm willing to
> let =
> our
> > moderators be the judges of that. Anybody want to join me?
> >
> > At 01:07 AM 11/24/2006, you wrote:
> >> The alphabetical principle holds that letters stand for sounds. We
> >> find now
> >> that even Egyption hieroglyphic symbols stand for sounds, and we
> can>> speak
> >> the writings of 5,000 years ago because of this.
> >>
> >> Arbitrary dialects destroy this relationship and should they
> take =
> hold
> >> lessen the consistency of correspondence between letters and sounds
> >> and make
> >> English all the harder to read and learn. Not good.
> >>
> >> Let's not be artificial dialectizers by misspeaking words, but
> rather>> retainers of what semplence of alphabetic principle we
> have for
> >> English.
> >>
> >> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
> >> See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces
> >> friends
> >> list.
> >> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?
> >> =
> href=3Dhttp://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=3Dcreate&wx_url=3D=
> /
> >> friends.aspx&mk
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org =
> =20
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org =
> =20
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org =
> =20
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask
> your question on Yahoo! Answers.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org