Nobody's Perfect Dept.

Sat Dec 16 18:44:55 UTC 2006

At 6:27 AM -0800 12/16/06, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Scott, phonemes _must_ create a difference in meaning only in a
>minimal pair.  Otherwise they don't have to. "Gorse" and "furze" are
>exact synonyms in English, yet except for / r /, their phonemes are
>entirely contrastive.
>
>   "Shit" and "shite" are also exactly synonymous, despite their
>resemblance to a classic minimum pair.  / I / and  / aI /  are still
>"phonemes of English" because of the existence of, for ex., "fit"
>and "fight."
>
>   Like many kinds of "notional unit," a "phoneme" has fuzzy edges in practice.
>
>   JL
>

Note too that the contrast between the phonemes /th/ and /dh/ (or is
it /T/ and /D/?) yields a meaning difference is "thistle" vs.
"this'll" or in "ether" vs. "either", but they don't in the two
pronunciations of "with".  (Or consider the choice between the
phonemes /iy/ and /E/ in the first syllable of "electricity".  Of
course in these cases the two phonemes don't "create a difference in
meaning in a minimal pair"--because we're not dealing with minimal
pairs, because there's no difference in meaning.

LH

>
>    LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>   ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Scot LaFaive
>Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This kind of scares me, but I agree that this definition for phoneme seems
>wrong. A phoneme as "the smallest contrastive notional unit of sound that
>may affect meaning in a given language" sounds wrong because of "may."
>Shouldn't a phoneme always affect meaning as opposed to an allophone? I
>don't claim to be an expert, just as learner, so maybe I'm wrong.
>
>Scot
>
>
>>From: Tom Zurinskas
>>Reply-To: American Dialect Society
>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>>Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 02:33:05 +0000
>>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  > For lurkers, a phoneme is the smallest contrastive notional unit of
>>sound that may affect meaning in a given language
>>
>>This is not a good definition. I've never seen one with "may" in it. That
>>also means it "may not" as well. And if it does both, why mentioin it.
>>Makes no sense.
>>
>>You should clarify what "lurker" means. As I understand it a lurker is one
>>who is reading emails, but has not commented as yet. It reflects nothing
>>on
>>their expertise or intent.
>>
>>Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
>>See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  >From: Jonathan Lighter
>>  >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
>>  >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>  >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>>  >Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:42:28 -0800
>>  >
>>  >---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  >-----------------------
>>  >Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  >Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>  >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>>  >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >
>>  >"The smallest significant unit in language" is also misleading. Since
>>  >allophones constitute morphemes, a "phone" is in a real sense smaller,
>>and
>>  >"significant" too, since you can't have a spoken language without phones.
>>  >
>>  > Prof. Murfin has taught English and criticism at Yale.
>>  >
>>  > For lurkers, a phoneme is the smallest contrastive notional unit of
>>  >sound that may affect meaning in a given language.
>>  >
>>  > JL
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote:
>>  > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  >-----------------------
>>  >Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky"
>>  >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>>  >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  > >
>>  >On Dec 15, 2006, at 7:13 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>>  >
>>  > >> >From a professional explication for undergraduates of cultural-
>>  > >> theory terms:
>>  > >>
>>  > >> "Phoneme... A phoneme is the smallest significant unit in
>>  > >> language; thus, both 'a" and 'an' are phonemes, but 'n' is not."
>>  > >>
>>  > >> --Ross C. Murfin, "Glossary of Theoretical and Critical Terms," in
>>  > >> Daniel R. Schwarz, ed. _Joseph Conrad: The Secret Sharer...with
>>  > >> Biographical and Historical Contexts...and Essays from Five
>>  > >> Contemporary critical Perspectives_ (Boston: Bedford Books, 1997),
>>  > >> p. 264.
>>  > >>
>>  > > Well, he got the -eme part right, anyway. Part credit.
>>  >
>>  >not even that. "a" and "an" are morphs, instances of a single
>>  >morpheme. murfin seems to be missing the abstraction in the morpheme
>>  >concept.
>>  >
>>  >ok, to be generous, you can read him as using "morpheme" to mean
>>  >'instance of a morpheme'. so there are two morphemes in "an owl" and
>>  >two in "a bird".
>>  >
>>  >in any case, the examples are not well chosen. the reader has to
>>  >figure out (from their juxtaposition) that the "a" and "an" in
>>  >question are the indefinite article and not any of the other things
>>  >spelled "a" or "an" (many of which are not morphemes). note that the
>>  >use of spelling is problematic. as is the fact that these morphemes
>>  >are also words.
>>  >
>>  >there's plenty of room here for misunderstanding.
>>  >
>>  >arnold
>>  >
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