Nobody's Perfect Dept.

Sun Dec 17 01:49:24 UTC 2006

Lighter,

Knock off the gratuitous vulgarity.  It demeans us all.  It's almost
bullyish.

Of course your definition of phoneme
>For lurkers, a phoneme is the smallest contrastive notional unit of
>sound that may affect meaning in a given language.
is defective.  Where did you get it?  Did you make it up.

Substitute "does" for "may" and you come up with something that you express
as relevant to minimum pairs below.

The two definitions that were given here by you are substantially different
from each other.  The other was  "A phoneme is the smallest significant unit
in language".  This one I like.
Do you have any more?

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.

>From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 06:27:34 -0800
>
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Scott, phonemes _must_ create a difference in meaning only in a minimal
>pair.  Otherwise they don't have to. "Gorse" and "furze" are exact synonyms
>in English, yet except for / r /, their phonemes are entirely contrastive.
>
>   "Shit" and "shite" are also exactly synonymous, despite their
>resemblance to a classic minimum pair.  / I / and  / aI /  are still
>"phonemes of English" because of the existence of, for ex., "fit" and
>"fight."
>
>   Like many kinds of "notional unit," a "phoneme" has fuzzy edges in
>practice.
>
>   JL
>
>
>
>    LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>   ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Scot LaFaive
>Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This kind of scares me, but I agree that this definition for phoneme seems
>wrong. A phoneme as "the smallest contrastive notional unit of sound that
>may affect meaning in a given language" sounds wrong because of "may."
>Shouldn't a phoneme always affect meaning as opposed to an allophone? I
>don't claim to be an expert, just as learner, so maybe I'm wrong.
>
>Scot
>
>
> >From: Tom Zurinskas
> >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> >Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 02:33:05 +0000
> >
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> >Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > For lurkers, a phoneme is the smallest contrastive notional unit of
> >sound that may affect meaning in a given language
> >
> >This is not a good definition. I've never seen one with "may" in it. That
> >also means it "may not" as well. And if it does both, why mentioin it.
> >Makes no sense.
> >
> >You should clarify what "lurker" means. As I understand it a lurker is
>one
> >who is reading emails, but has not commented as yet. It reflects nothing
> >on
> >their expertise or intent.
> >
> >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
> >See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Jonathan Lighter
> > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> > >Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:42:28 -0800
> > >
> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >-----------------------
> > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> > >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >"The smallest significant unit in language" is also misleading. Since
> > >allophones constitute morphemes, a "phone" is in a real sense smaller,
> >and
> > >"significant" too, since you can't have a spoken language without
>phones.
> > >
> > > Prof. Murfin has taught English and criticism at Yale.
> > >
> > > For lurkers, a phoneme is the smallest contrastive notional unit of
> > >sound that may affect meaning in a given language.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > >
> > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >-----------------------
> > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky"
> > >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >On Dec 15, 2006, at 7:13 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
> > >
> > > >> >From a professional explication for undergraduates of cultural-
> > > >> theory terms:
> > > >>
> > > >> "Phoneme... A phoneme is the smallest significant unit in
> > > >> language; thus, both 'a" and 'an' are phonemes, but 'n' is not."
> > > >>
> > > >> --Ross C. Murfin, "Glossary of Theoretical and Critical Terms," in
> > > >> Daniel R. Schwarz, ed. _Joseph Conrad: The Secret Sharer...with
> > > >> Biographical and Historical Contexts...and Essays from Five
> > > >> Contemporary critical Perspectives_ (Boston: Bedford Books, 1997),
> > > >> p. 264.
> > > >>
> > > > Well, he got the -eme part right, anyway. Part credit.
> > >
> > >not even that. "a" and "an" are morphs, instances of a single
> > >morpheme. murfin seems to be missing the abstraction in the morpheme
> > >concept.
> > >
> > >ok, to be generous, you can read him as using "morpheme" to mean
> > >'instance of a morpheme'. so there are two morphemes in "an owl" and
> > >two in "a bird".
> > >
> > >in any case, the examples are not well chosen. the reader has to
> > >figure out (from their juxtaposition) that the "a" and "an" in
> > >question are the indefinite article and not any of the other things
> > >spelled "a" or "an" (many of which are not morphemes). note that the
> > >use of spelling is problematic. as is the fact that these morphemes
> > >are also words.
> > >
> > >there's plenty of room here for misunderstanding.
> > >
> > >arnold
> > >
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