episodic "never" (was Re: Final call for papers: ADS 2008 Chicago)

[Wilson Gray]

"Well/No, I never" isn't meant to imply that "Well, I never" and "No,
I never" are equal, is it? "Well, I *never*!" is an exclamation that I
know only from books and movies, whereas "No, I never," with the same
intonation pattern as "No, I didn't," is something that I've heard on
a daily basis in ordinary conversation.

-WIlson

On 8/7/07, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      episodic "never" (was Re: Final call for papers: ADS 2008
>               Chicago)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 4:11 PM -0400 8/7/07, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> >Jenny Cheshire had an article some years ago on this same punctual use of
> >"never" by kids in Reading, I believe (not at hand now).  I think I recall
> >hearing it too, most commonly in strong denial situations like the one
> >Wilson suggests.  Maybe it's not nonstandard for most people but just
> >colloquial.
>
> To decide this, especially when "never" is used with full verb
> phrases (as opposed to the free-standing "Well/No, I never"), it
> would be helpful to focus on cases where you know a particular event
> could only happen once, e.g. "I never killed him".  For me this would
> be non-standard and not just colloquial.  Curiously, Cheshire in the
> piece Beverly and I were referring to takes observers to task on
> exactly this point.  I wrote in my review:
>
> Cheshire has interesting things to say about the role of prescriptive
> edicts in language change, but I am not sure what she means in
> asserting that never in reference to a single past event 'has been
> incorrectly labeled non-standard by sociolinguists' (p. 48); surely
> this is a correct (and non-judgmental) application of the label.
>
> (I also complained that in assuming without argument that _-n't_ is a
> clitic--as opposed to an inflected form--she, along with other
> authors in the volume, disregards the convincing refutation of this
> assumption by Zwicky & Pullum 1983.)
>
> LH
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >At 03:38 PM 8/7/2007, you wrote:
> >>---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >>Subject:      Re: Final call for papers: ADS 2008 Chicago
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>I have to go with Ron on this one. When we moved up to Saint Louis
> >>from Texas, we were struck by the ability of white neighbor kids,
> >>ca.1940, to use "No, I never!" for "No, I didn't!" as well as for "No,
> >>I never have / haven't (ever)!"
> >>
> >>-Wilson
> >>
> >>On 8/7/07, RonButters at aol.com <RonButters at aol.com> wrote:
> >>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>  Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
> >>>
> >>Subject:
> >>=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20[ADS-L]=20Final=20c?
> >>>                = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?all=20for=20papers:=20ADS=202008=20Chicago?=
> >>>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>  In a message dated 8/7/07 11:30:19 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  > For
> >>>  > example, "never" is apparently standard in "I never went there" for
> >>>  > "At no time in the past did I got there" but nonstandard for "I
> >>>  > didn't go there."
> >>>  >
> >>>
> >>>  So "standard" American English has some kind of punctual-versus-eternal
> >>>  aspect? Not for me, I think (maybe for young guys such as Dennis), is
> >>"I never went
> >>>  there" 'standard' for either case, though I could say it informally whether
> >>>  my meaning was 'I have never gone there' or 'I didn't go there at the
> >>time that
> >>>  instant in time that is at issue in our conversation." If someone says
> >>to me,
> >>>  "I never went there"--whether it is Dennis, Arnold, Frank, or some totally
> >>>  vernacular speaker, I cannot know, except for context, whether the time
> >>>  described is punctual or eternal.
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>--
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> >>                                               -Sam'l Clemens
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--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
                                              -Sam'l Clemens

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