"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep...discussing lunch" (Ben Franklin?)

Wed Jan 24 20:58:01 UTC 2007

Surely Aesop's fable of the Wolf and the Lamb lies behind the aphorism.  In that one, the Wolf gives three lying reasons why it is just that he should eat the Lamb. After the Lamb's reasoned refutations, the Wolf eats him anyway.

  JL

Towse <my.cache at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
  ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Towse
Subject: Re: "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep...discussing lunch" (Ben
Franklin?)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 1/24/07, Bapopik at aol.com wrote:
> DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES--110,000 Google hits
> WELL-ARMED LAMB--92,300 Google hits
> WELL-ARMED SHEEP--19,400 Google hits
> ...
> ...
> Did Benjamin Franklin say this? It's not in the Yale Book of
> Quotations--maybe next time? Or does this come from the 1990s?

Various people have searched his writings for this aphorism and not found it.

"Lunch," for whatever it's worth, was not a common English word until the 19thc.

Nothing shows up with a search for wolves/lamb/democracy in The
Making of America digital library of primary sources from the 19thc:

One would think someone would've quoted it then, if the quote is still
around today.

--
Sal

Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers
and the terminally curious

> ...
> _http://www.nypost.com/seven/01242007/postopinion/editorials/lunches_with_wolv
> es_editorials_.htm_
> (http://www.nypost.com/seven/01242007/postopinion/editorials/lunches_with_wolves_editorials_.htm)
>
> LUNCHES WITH WOLVES
>
> January 24, 2007 -- Democracy has been defined as two wolves and a sheep
> discussing plans for lunch.
> ...
> ...
> ...
> (GOOGLE)
> ...
>
>
> _Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch._
> (http://extlab1.entnem.ufl.edu/ih8pcs/vol5/v5n26.htm)
> The International Black Sheep Society WWW site lets you post information on
> the Black Sheep in your family while reading about the ones in other
> families. ...
> extlab1.entnem.ufl.edu/ih8pcs/vol5/v5n26.htm - 28k - _Cached_
> (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:dmJslgqrLrwJ:extlab1.entnem.ufl.edu/ih8pcs/vol5/v5n26.h
> tm+lunch+wolves+sheep+democracy&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8) -
> _Similar pages_
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:extlab1.entnem.ufl.edu/ih8pcs/vol5/v5n26.htm)
> > >
>
> _www.letsrollforums.com :: View topic - 911 Documentaries Free ..._
> (http://www.letsrollforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=130893)
> The Definition of Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what they
> are going to have for lunch. America is a Representative Republic, ...
> www.letsrollforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=130893 - 37k - _Cached_
> (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:iS-UaBfoxO4J:www.letsrollforums.com/forums/view
> topic.php?p=130893+lunch+wolves+sheep+democracy&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&ie=UT
> F-8) - _Similar pages_
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.letsrollforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=130893)
> > >
>
> _The Three Rivers Post & Standard » Elderly Vote to Stick Others ..._
> (http://www.threeriverspost.com/2006/03/28/195)
> That is the uncouth nature of pure democracy, where the proverbial four
> wolves (the majority of voters) and a sheep (the minority of voters) get to vote
> on ...
> www.threeriverspost.com/2006/03/28/195 - 31k - _Cached_
> (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:PHyrealZITEJ:www.threeriverspost.com/2006/03/28/195+lunch+wol
> ves+sheep+democracy&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.threeriverspost.com
> /2006/03/28/195)
> > >
>
> _QI Talk Forum | View topic - Democracy_
> (http://www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2627&start=30&sid=bee6f4a96a2d0383722eddb04762c5ec)
> "A democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding on what to have for lunch.
> Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the results of the decision." ...
> www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2627&sta&sid=bee6f4a96a2d0383722eddb04762
> c5ec - 46k - _Cached_
> (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:PJOcs1ANlyQJ:www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2627&start=30&sid=bee6f4a96a2d0383722eddb04762c5ec
> +lunch+wolves+sheep+democracy&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar
> pages_
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2627&start=30&sid=bee6f4a96a2d0383722eddb04762c5ec)
> > > (GOOGLE
> > _Of Thee I Speak: A Collection of Patriotic Quotes, Essays, and Speeches -
> Page 34_
> (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0974566918&id=5dW8yQjuk18C&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&ots=nBoR9DoxWy&dq=lunch+wolves+lamb+democracy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=A-
> SlKcepAEvQQ8Ya8bUNTiGCyWo)
> by Steven (COM) Fantina - Reference - 2006 - 240 pages
> —Charles Carroll Democracy is ... wolves and a lamb voting on what to have
> for
> lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote! ...
> Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the
> --Benjamin Fr
> > > _Red, White & Liberal: How Left Is Right & Right Is Wrong - Page 306_
> (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0060734337&id=L1_Ra1rvDuUC&pg=PA306&lpg=PA306&
> ots=eaA36E1DfU&dq=lunch+wolves+lamb+democracy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=2Ffc-erArq9oRu
> NSIhoPX4pOz6U)
> by Alan Colmes - 2003 - 352 pages
> As Benjamin Franklin said, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on
> what to
> have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote! ...
> ...
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN059530804X&id=8PvQRYBMG-wC&pg=RA1-PA116&lpg=RA1-PA116&ots=Y8_u3yrAjI&dq=lunch+wolves+lamb+democracy&ie=ISO-
> 8859-1&sig=dnnscdfBM_CI93b3zolXPqhd66w)
> (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN059530804X&id=8PvQRYBMG-wC&pg=RA1-PA116&lpg=RA1-PA116&ots=Y8_u3yrAjI&dq=lun
> ch+wolves+lamb+democracy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=dnnscdfBM_CI93b3zolXPqhd66w)
> (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN059530804X&id=8PvQRYBMG-wC&pg=RA1-PA116&l
> pg=RA1-PA116&ots=Y8_u3yrAjI&dq=lunch+wolves+lamb+democracy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=d
> nnscdfBM_CI93b3zolXPqhd66w)
> _Gorgeous Robot Flesh - Page 116_
> (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN059530804X&id=8PvQRYBMG-wC&pg=RA1-PA116&lpg=RA1-PA116&ots=Y8_u3yrAjI&dq=lunch+wolve
> s+lamb+democracy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=dnnscdfBM_CI93b3zolXPqhd66w)
> by Jonathon Barbera - 2004 - 196 pages
> Now there was a quote attributed to Benjamin Franklin on the subject of
> democracy
> involving two on three wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch,
> ...
> ...
> ...
>
> _The Diluted Church: Calling Believers to Live Out of Their True Heritage -
> Page 99_
> (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0976522209&id=l2pPznYMqHYC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&ots=_SYI5kL-p_&dq=lunch+wolves+sheep+democracy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=
> UqH86krFsfINXdG_wNCNAJ6ccKQ)
> by Timothy L. Price - 2005 - 276 pages
> He wrote, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
> lunch."
> Jesus faced the same seductive temptation when He was fasting in the ...
> ...
> ...
> _The Long Road to Peace in Northern Ireland: peace lectures from the
> Institute of Irish Studies at... - Page 42_
> (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0853236771&id=65RuIVkntqsC&pg=RA3-PA42&lpg=RA3-PA42&ots=yFjOvA2yeJ&dq=lunch+wolv
> es+sheep+democracy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=OHPuWgSGTF_Rs6wJOlZXeNKherY)
> by Marianne ( Elliott - 2001 - 266 pages
> In this sense, democracy is not about how three wolves and a sheep vote
> about
> ... up for lunch, but, as Isaiah Berlin puts it, how the freedom of the
> wolves ...
> ...
> ...
> _Ecology, Engineering, and Management: reconciling ecosystem rehabilitation
> and service reliability - Page 89_
> (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0195139682&id=-8TlX3d4Qv4C&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&ots=BXbAwtyYVH&dq=lunch+wolves+sheep+de
> mocracy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=CFzDdUzqTXDYnyYQbzopki1J3jk)
> by Michel J. G. Van Eeten, Emery Roe - 2002 - 270 pages
> ... in a democracy has been likened to asking a pack of four hungry wolves
> and a
> sheep to apply democratic principles to deciding what to eat for lunch. ...
> ...
> ...
> ...
> _http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin_
> (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin)
> Misattributions
> * Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
> * Widely attributed to Franklin on the internet, sometimes without the
> second sentence, it is not found in any of his known writings, and the word
> "lunch" is not known to have appeared anywhere in english literature until
> the 1820s, decades after his death. The phrasing itself has a very modern tone
> and the second sentence especially might not even be as old as the internet.
> Some of these observations are made in response to a query at _Google Answers_
> (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=389308) .
> A far rarer but somewhat more credible variation also occurs: "Democracy is
> two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner." Web searches on
> these lines uncovers the earliest definite citations for such a statement credit
> libertarian author _James Bovard_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bovard) with a similar one in the _Sacramento Bee (1994)_
> (http://www.giraffe.com/gr_wolves.html) :
>
>
>
> "Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what
> to have for dinner."
>
> This statement also definitely occurs in the "Conclusion" (p. 333) of his
> book Lost Rights: The Destruction of American Liberty (1994) _ISBN 0312123337_
> (http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=0312123337)
>
> ...
> ...
> ...
> (GOOGLE GROUPS)
> ...
> _Electoral College_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/misc.misc/browse_thread/thread/62b51b7285db540/164e
> 84c6ab91c34c?lnk=st&q="democracy+is+two+wolves"&rnum=133&hl=en#164e84c6ab91c34c) Group: _misc.misc_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/misc.misc?lnk=sg&hl=en)
> ... some might say that's a good thing. the founding fathers had a good
> reason for
> making this a republic instead of a democracy. as the saying goes, "Democracy
> is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner". ...
> Feb 26 1993 by Derek Reisinger - 74 messages - 43 authors
> ...
> ...
>
> _Shared sacrifice = TAXES! TAXES! TAXES!_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.elections/browse_thread/thread/24d08190f49dcc54/dd70755b35cc9908?lnk=
> st&q="democracy+is+two+wolves"&rnum=134&hl=en#dd70755b35cc9908) Group:
> _alt.politics.elections_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.elections?lnk=sg&hl=en)
> ... John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253
> (602-951-9326)
> j... at anasazi.com ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john anasaz!j... at asuvax.eas.asu.edu
> -
> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep using majority vote to decide what - -
> to have ...
> Feb 20 1993 by John R. Moore - 311 messages - 89 authors
> ...
> ...
>
> _GayBashing question_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sex/browse_thread/thread/c8a60dceb413d43a/69eb969165c16683?lnk=st&q="democracy+is+two+wolves"&rnum
> =135&hl=en#69eb969165c16683) Group: _alt.sex_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sex?lnk=sg&hl=en)
> ... but it is all too easy to impugn a racial motive, -- John Moore NJ7E,
> 7525 Clearwater
> Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253 (602-951-9326) j... at anasazi.com
> ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!
> john anasaz!j... at asuvax.eas.asu.edu - Democracy is two wolves and a ...
> Jan 15 1993 by John R. Moore - 103 messages - 42 authors
> ...
> ...
> ...
> (GOOGLE GROUPS)
> ...
> _problems with RTF_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.pmail/browse_thread/thread/d7096d70ef8cd68c/d75cc929e90edbd3?lnk=st&q="well-armed+sheep"&rn
> um=151&hl=en#d75cc929e90edbd3) Group: _bit.listserv.pmail_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.pmail?lnk=sg&hl=en)
> ... Garrett Michael Hayes gha... at mindspring.com * Democracy is two wolves
> and a sheep
> voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is two wolves attempting to have
> a sheep
> for dinner and finding a well-informed, well-armed sheep.
> May 2 1997 by Garrett Michael Hayes
> ...
> ...
> _rhide and Windows95_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.msdos.djgpp/browse_thread/thread/9b20ee8a3aed81f6/ebc26da3f75fbd35?lnk=st&q="well-armed+lamb"&
> rnum=44&hl=en#ebc26da3f75fbd35) Group: _comp.os.msdos.djgpp_
> (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.msdos.djgpp?lnk=sg&hl=en) ... (FILENAME and
> PATH are shown as an example...the case is the significance) What
> now? Dave D. Dave Dawson Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed lamb denying enforcement of the vote.
> Jun 11 1997 by Selfgovern - 8 messages - 7 authors
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

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