"Don't shit where you eat"

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Tue Jul 10 16:13:37 UTC 2007


At 11:33 AM -0400 7/10/07, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Sorry, I disagree with you on this one, Wilson.  After 30 years of knowing
>and teaching Muslims from many (not just Arab) countries, I would hesitate
>to generalize about conversion tendencies (Christians _don't_ try to
>convert?!)

I was thinking that by "Christians", Wilson was referring here to
Jews.  Another proseltyization generalization, but I'm pretty sure an
accurate one this time.

LH

>, naming patterns, or anything else about them.  And "Turks
>sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English very well - which is not to
>imply that Arab Muslims don't -  and they party their asses off"?  _Some_
>secular Turks, yes; but religious Muslim Turks (including good friends of
>mine) are quite another matter.  I take no stand on the contentious Turkish
>political situation (well, yes, I do, but that's another matter), but let's
>be careful not to stereotype cultures--we know what happened in the West
>when we did (and do) that.  A little personal experience takes us "beyond
>the book," as you discovered yourself.
>
>At 05:40 PM 7/9/2007, you wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>My experience is essentially the same as yours, Jon. My experience has
>>also been that what you read is more trustworthy than conclusions that
>>you reach on your own. Back in the day, I concluded, on the basis of
>>evidence gathered from news stories, a TIME cover featuring the late
>>Charles Malik, then premier of Lebanon, and friends named "George,"
>>"Georgette," and "Louis," that all Lebanese Catholics (the Maronite
>>Church is a branch of the Catholic Church) had Western first names.
>>Some time later, I worked with a Lebanese colleague whose first name
>>was "Jamil." Given that his name was Arabic, one day I asked Jamil
>>several questions about Islam. Jamil became quite agitated and claimed
>>that he had no idea what the answers to my questions were, not  even
>>what the proper Arabic pronunciation of Muhammad was. The next day,
>>and every day thereafter, Jamil came to work wearing a gold crucifix
>>around his neck. I'm a slow learner, since I had years earlier assumed
>>that an Egyptian classmate at UC Davis was a Muslim, when he was a
>>Coptic Christian.
>>
>>I've now noted a major difference: in my experience, true Muslims are
>>like Jehovah's Witnesses; they want to convert you. Christians mind
>>their own business. Turks are a notable exception to this
>>generalization. Turks sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English
>>very well - which is not to imply that Arab Muslims don't -  and they
>>party their asses off. Nevertheless, they're surprised when this third
>>characteristic sometimes causes them to be mistaken for black
>>Americans.
>>
>>-Wilson
>>
>>-Wilson
>>
>>On 7/9/07, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>  Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>>  Subject:      Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>  Hey, Wilson, I never heard of that hand thing in NYC except as an Arab
>>custom.
>>>
>>>    And I had to read a book to learn that.
>>>
>>>    JL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>    ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>  Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>  Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>  See there! Ain't I done told y'all a whole lot, segregation really
>>>  worked? I have never heard tell before this moment of any customary
>>  > use of the left hand among the colored. In the particular case that I
>>>  cite, the white guy was an Italian-American from Philadelphia named
>>>  deRosa and the black guy, named Jefferson, was from Oceanside, CA,
>>>  then an Army town connected to the now-defunct Fort Ord. His father
>>>  was also a GI. Nevertheless, Jeff was something of a punk. The insult
>>>  hurt his feelings so badly that he came back to the barracks crying.
>>>  He didn't get much sympathy from the rest of us, because we'd warned
>>>  his black ass not to go to the party from the BE-gin-nin'. There was
>>>  no telling what might happen to a coupl'a three blacks among a crowd
>>>  of drunken Northern GI's. On the other hand, Southerners who, when
>>>  sober, gave us the hate stare - cf. _Black Like Me_ - tended to become
>>>  "We're all Southerners together" when drunk.
>>>
>>>  -Wilson
>>>
>>>  On 7/7/07, Dennis Preston
>>>  wrote:
>>>  > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>>  > Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>  > Poster: Dennis Preston
>>>
>>>  > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>>  >
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  >
>>>  > Wilson,
>>>  >
>>>  > This is an interesting joke; a common piece of racist folk stuff
>>>  > where I grew up, around Louisville KY, (apparently told with some
>>>  > degree of belief) was that black people shook hands with their left
>>>  > hands customarily. Is (was) this widespread?
>>>  >
>>>  > dInIs
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>  > >-----------------------
>>>  > >Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>  > >Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>  > >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>>  > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>----------
>>>  > >
>>>  > >Ii agree with what you say WRT to Muslim custom. I read about it in a
>>>  > >book, about fifty years ago. ;-) But wouldn't that also be true of
>>>  > >Americans? Wouldn't you switch hands or put down what you were
>>>  > >holding, in order to be able to shake hands with another American with
>>>  > >your right hand? Or maybe I'm being hypersensitive.
>>>  > >
>>>  > >White guy offers right hand to black guy:
>>>  > >
>>>  > >"Happy New Year!"
>>>  > >
>>>  > >Black guy extends right hand.
>>>  > >
>>>  > >White guy withdraws right hand and offers left hand:
>>>  > >
>>>  > >"Oops! I'm sorry! I use my *left* hand to shake with niggers."
>>>  > >
>>>  > >-Wilson
>>>  > >
>>>  > >On 7/6/07, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>  > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>  > >>-----------------------
>>>  > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>  > >> Poster: Beverly Flanigan
>>>  > >> Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>-----------
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> At 04:46 PM 7/6/2007, you wrote:
>>>  > >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>  > >> >-----------------------
>>>  > >> >Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>  > >> >Poster: Barbara Need
>>>  > >> >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>>  > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------
>>-------------
>>>  > >> >
>>>  > >> >At 23:11 -0400 03/7/07, sagehen wrote:
>>>  > >> > > >Sorry for the crude title.
>>>  > >> > >>
>>>  > >> > >>Has anyone searched to find out what the earliest version of
>>this must
>>>  > >> > >>have been? I would doubt that it was that phrasing.
>>>  > >> > >>
>>>  > >> > >>Anyone suggest what the original sentiment might have been?
>>>  > >> > >>
>>>  > >> > >>Sam Clements
>>>  > >> > > ~~~~~~~~~~
>>>  > >> > >I remember reading about the Essenes or some similar group --
>>associated
>>>  > >> > >with the Dead Sea Scrolls, perhaps? -- that had strictures
>>concerning the
>>>  > >> > >roles of the two hands: the one that went into the communal pot
>>>  > >>at mealtime
>>>  > >> > >would never be the one that wiped one's bottom. Whether the
>>>  > >>left was the
>>>  > >> > >"clean" and the right the "unclean" I don't remember, but I
>>believe the
>>>  > >> > >roles were immutable.
>>>  > >> > >AM
>>>  > >> >
>>>  > >> >I remember a month-long Sunday school sequence on the Arab world
>>>  > >> >(mid-70s, Unitarian Church) in which we were instructed to eat with
>>  > > >> >the right hand (no utensils!) because the left hand was
>>traditionally
>>>  > >> >used to wipe oneself.
>>>  > >> >
>>>  > >> >Barbara
>>>  > >> >
>>>  > >> >Barbara Need
>>>  > >> >UChicago
>>>  > >> >
>>>  > >> >------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> Still true for Muslims. If I'm holding something in my right hand and
>>>  > >> unthinkingly shake hands with a Muslim student with my left hand, I
>>>  > >> immediately know I've committed a faux pas from the look on the
>>face of my
>>>  > >> student.
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >
>>>  > >
>>>  > >--
>>>  > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>  > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>  > >-----
>>>  > > -Sam'l Clemens
>>>  > >
>>>  > >------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>  > --
>>>  > Dennis R. Preston
>>>  > University Distinguished Professor
>>>  > Department of English
>>>  > Morrill Hall 15-C
>>>  > Michigan State University
>>>  > East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>>>  >
>>>  > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>  >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>  come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>  -----
>>>  -Sam'l Clemens
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  ---------------------------------
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>>
>>
>>--
>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>-----
>>                                               -Sam'l Clemens
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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