"Don't shit where you eat"
Laurence Horn
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Tue Jul 10 16:13:37 UTC 2007
At 11:33 AM -0400 7/10/07, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Sorry, I disagree with you on this one, Wilson. After 30 years of knowing
>and teaching Muslims from many (not just Arab) countries, I would hesitate
>to generalize about conversion tendencies (Christians _don't_ try to
>convert?!)
I was thinking that by "Christians", Wilson was referring here to
Jews. Another proseltyization generalization, but I'm pretty sure an
accurate one this time.
LH
>, naming patterns, or anything else about them. And "Turks
>sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English very well - which is not to
>imply that Arab Muslims don't - and they party their asses off"? _Some_
>secular Turks, yes; but religious Muslim Turks (including good friends of
>mine) are quite another matter. I take no stand on the contentious Turkish
>political situation (well, yes, I do, but that's another matter), but let's
>be careful not to stereotype cultures--we know what happened in the West
>when we did (and do) that. A little personal experience takes us "beyond
>the book," as you discovered yourself.
>
>At 05:40 PM 7/9/2007, you wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>My experience is essentially the same as yours, Jon. My experience has
>>also been that what you read is more trustworthy than conclusions that
>>you reach on your own. Back in the day, I concluded, on the basis of
>>evidence gathered from news stories, a TIME cover featuring the late
>>Charles Malik, then premier of Lebanon, and friends named "George,"
>>"Georgette," and "Louis," that all Lebanese Catholics (the Maronite
>>Church is a branch of the Catholic Church) had Western first names.
>>Some time later, I worked with a Lebanese colleague whose first name
>>was "Jamil." Given that his name was Arabic, one day I asked Jamil
>>several questions about Islam. Jamil became quite agitated and claimed
>>that he had no idea what the answers to my questions were, not even
>>what the proper Arabic pronunciation of Muhammad was. The next day,
>>and every day thereafter, Jamil came to work wearing a gold crucifix
>>around his neck. I'm a slow learner, since I had years earlier assumed
>>that an Egyptian classmate at UC Davis was a Muslim, when he was a
>>Coptic Christian.
>>
>>I've now noted a major difference: in my experience, true Muslims are
>>like Jehovah's Witnesses; they want to convert you. Christians mind
>>their own business. Turks are a notable exception to this
>>generalization. Turks sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English
>>very well - which is not to imply that Arab Muslims don't - and they
>>party their asses off. Nevertheless, they're surprised when this third
>>characteristic sometimes causes them to be mistaken for black
>>Americans.
>>
>>-Wilson
>>
>>-Wilson
>>
>>On 7/9/07, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>> Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Hey, Wilson, I never heard of that hand thing in NYC except as an Arab
>>custom.
>>>
>>> And I had to read a book to learn that.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>> Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> See there! Ain't I done told y'all a whole lot, segregation really
>>> worked? I have never heard tell before this moment of any customary
>> > use of the left hand among the colored. In the particular case that I
>>> cite, the white guy was an Italian-American from Philadelphia named
>>> deRosa and the black guy, named Jefferson, was from Oceanside, CA,
>>> then an Army town connected to the now-defunct Fort Ord. His father
>>> was also a GI. Nevertheless, Jeff was something of a punk. The insult
>>> hurt his feelings so badly that he came back to the barracks crying.
>>> He didn't get much sympathy from the rest of us, because we'd warned
>>> his black ass not to go to the party from the BE-gin-nin'. There was
>>> no telling what might happen to a coupl'a three blacks among a crowd
>>> of drunken Northern GI's. On the other hand, Southerners who, when
>>> sober, gave us the hate stare - cf. _Black Like Me_ - tended to become
>>> "We're all Southerners together" when drunk.
>>>
>>> -Wilson
>>>
>>> On 7/7/07, Dennis Preston
>>> wrote:
>>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>> > Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> > Poster: Dennis Preston
>>>
>>> > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>> >
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Wilson,
>>> >
>>> > This is an interesting joke; a common piece of racist folk stuff
>>> > where I grew up, around Louisville KY, (apparently told with some
>>> > degree of belief) was that black people shook hands with their left
>>> > hands customarily. Is (was) this widespread?
>>> >
>>> > dInIs
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> > >-----------------------
>>> > >Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> > >Poster: Wilson Gray
>>> > >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>----------
>>> > >
>>> > >Ii agree with what you say WRT to Muslim custom. I read about it in a
>>> > >book, about fifty years ago. ;-) But wouldn't that also be true of
>>> > >Americans? Wouldn't you switch hands or put down what you were
>>> > >holding, in order to be able to shake hands with another American with
>>> > >your right hand? Or maybe I'm being hypersensitive.
>>> > >
>>> > >White guy offers right hand to black guy:
>>> > >
>>> > >"Happy New Year!"
>>> > >
>>> > >Black guy extends right hand.
>>> > >
>>> > >White guy withdraws right hand and offers left hand:
>>> > >
>>> > >"Oops! I'm sorry! I use my *left* hand to shake with niggers."
>>> > >
>>> > >-Wilson
>>> > >
>>> > >On 7/6/07, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> > >>-----------------------
>>> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> > >> Poster: Beverly Flanigan
>>> > >> Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>> > >>
>>> > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>-----------
>>> > >>
>>> > >> At 04:46 PM 7/6/2007, you wrote:
>>> > >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> > >> >-----------------------
>>> > >> >Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> > >> >Poster: Barbara Need
>>> > >> >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>>> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------
>>-------------
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >At 23:11 -0400 03/7/07, sagehen wrote:
>>> > >> > > >Sorry for the crude title.
>>> > >> > >>
>>> > >> > >>Has anyone searched to find out what the earliest version of
>>this must
>>> > >> > >>have been? I would doubt that it was that phrasing.
>>> > >> > >>
>>> > >> > >>Anyone suggest what the original sentiment might have been?
>>> > >> > >>
>>> > >> > >>Sam Clements
>>> > >> > > ~~~~~~~~~~
>>> > >> > >I remember reading about the Essenes or some similar group --
>>associated
>>> > >> > >with the Dead Sea Scrolls, perhaps? -- that had strictures
>>concerning the
>>> > >> > >roles of the two hands: the one that went into the communal pot
>>> > >>at mealtime
>>> > >> > >would never be the one that wiped one's bottom. Whether the
>>> > >>left was the
>>> > >> > >"clean" and the right the "unclean" I don't remember, but I
>>believe the
>>> > >> > >roles were immutable.
>>> > >> > >AM
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >I remember a month-long Sunday school sequence on the Arab world
>>> > >> >(mid-70s, Unitarian Church) in which we were instructed to eat with
>> > > >> >the right hand (no utensils!) because the left hand was
>>traditionally
>>> > >> >used to wipe oneself.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >Barbara
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >Barbara Need
>>> > >> >UChicago
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Still true for Muslims. If I'm holding something in my right hand and
>>> > >> unthinkingly shake hands with a Muslim student with my left hand, I
>>> > >> immediately know I've committed a faux pas from the look on the
>>face of my
>>> > >> student.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >--
>>> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>> > >-----
>>> > > -Sam'l Clemens
>>> > >
>>> > >------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Dennis R. Preston
>>> > University Distinguished Professor
>>> > Department of English
>>> > Morrill Hall 15-C
>>> > Michigan State University
>>> > East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>> -----
>>> -Sam'l Clemens
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>--
>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>-----
>> -Sam'l Clemens
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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