"Don't shit where you eat"
Beverly Flanigan
flanigan at OHIO.EDU
Tue Jul 10 15:33:34 UTC 2007
Sorry, I disagree with you on this one, Wilson. After 30 years of knowing
and teaching Muslims from many (not just Arab) countries, I would hesitate
to generalize about conversion tendencies (Christians _don't_ try to
convert?!), naming patterns, or anything else about them. And "Turks
sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English very well - which is not to
imply that Arab Muslims don't - and they party their asses off"? _Some_
secular Turks, yes; but religious Muslim Turks (including good friends of
mine) are quite another matter. I take no stand on the contentious Turkish
political situation (well, yes, I do, but that's another matter), but let's
be careful not to stereotype cultures--we know what happened in the West
when we did (and do) that. A little personal experience takes us "beyond
the book," as you discovered yourself.
At 05:40 PM 7/9/2007, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>My experience is essentially the same as yours, Jon. My experience has
>also been that what you read is more trustworthy than conclusions that
>you reach on your own. Back in the day, I concluded, on the basis of
>evidence gathered from news stories, a TIME cover featuring the late
>Charles Malik, then premier of Lebanon, and friends named "George,"
>"Georgette," and "Louis," that all Lebanese Catholics (the Maronite
>Church is a branch of the Catholic Church) had Western first names.
>Some time later, I worked with a Lebanese colleague whose first name
>was "Jamil." Given that his name was Arabic, one day I asked Jamil
>several questions about Islam. Jamil became quite agitated and claimed
>that he had no idea what the answers to my questions were, not even
>what the proper Arabic pronunciation of Muhammad was. The next day,
>and every day thereafter, Jamil came to work wearing a gold crucifix
>around his neck. I'm a slow learner, since I had years earlier assumed
>that an Egyptian classmate at UC Davis was a Muslim, when he was a
>Coptic Christian.
>
>I've now noted a major difference: in my experience, true Muslims are
>like Jehovah's Witnesses; they want to convert you. Christians mind
>their own business. Turks are a notable exception to this
>generalization. Turks sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English
>very well - which is not to imply that Arab Muslims don't - and they
>party their asses off. Nevertheless, they're surprised when this third
>characteristic sometimes causes them to be mistaken for black
>Americans.
>
>-Wilson
>
>-Wilson
>
>On 7/9/07, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hey, Wilson, I never heard of that hand thing in NYC except as an Arab
> custom.
> >
> > And I had to read a book to learn that.
> >
> > JL
> >
> >
> >
> > Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > See there! Ain't I done told y'all a whole lot, segregation really
> > worked? I have never heard tell before this moment of any customary
> > use of the left hand among the colored. In the particular case that I
> > cite, the white guy was an Italian-American from Philadelphia named
> > deRosa and the black guy, named Jefferson, was from Oceanside, CA,
> > then an Army town connected to the now-defunct Fort Ord. His father
> > was also a GI. Nevertheless, Jeff was something of a punk. The insult
> > hurt his feelings so badly that he came back to the barracks crying.
> > He didn't get much sympathy from the rest of us, because we'd warned
> > his black ass not to go to the party from the BE-gin-nin'. There was
> > no telling what might happen to a coupl'a three blacks among a crowd
> > of drunken Northern GI's. On the other hand, Southerners who, when
> > sober, gave us the hate stare - cf. _Black Like Me_ - tended to become
> > "We're all Southerners together" when drunk.
> >
> > -Wilson
> >
> > On 7/7/07, Dennis Preston
> > wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > Poster: Dennis Preston
> >
> > > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Wilson,
> > >
> > > This is an interesting joke; a common piece of racist folk stuff
> > > where I grew up, around Louisville KY, (apparently told with some
> > > degree of belief) was that black people shook hands with their left
> > > hands customarily. Is (was) this widespread?
> > >
> > > dInIs
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > >-----------------------
> > > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > >Poster: Wilson Gray
> > > >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> > > >
> > > >Ii agree with what you say WRT to Muslim custom. I read about it in a
> > > >book, about fifty years ago. ;-) But wouldn't that also be true of
> > > >Americans? Wouldn't you switch hands or put down what you were
> > > >holding, in order to be able to shake hands with another American with
> > > >your right hand? Or maybe I'm being hypersensitive.
> > > >
> > > >White guy offers right hand to black guy:
> > > >
> > > >"Happy New Year!"
> > > >
> > > >Black guy extends right hand.
> > > >
> > > >White guy withdraws right hand and offers left hand:
> > > >
> > > >"Oops! I'm sorry! I use my *left* hand to shake with niggers."
> > > >
> > > >-Wilson
> > > >
> > > >On 7/6/07, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > >>-----------------------
> > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > >> Poster: Beverly Flanigan
> > > >> Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > >>
> > > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> > > >>
> > > >> At 04:46 PM 7/6/2007, you wrote:
> > > >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > >> >-----------------------
> > > >> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > >> >Poster: Barbara Need
> > > >> >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------
> > > >> >
> > > >> >At 23:11 -0400 03/7/07, sagehen wrote:
> > > >> > > >Sorry for the crude title.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >>Has anyone searched to find out what the earliest version of
> this must
> > > >> > >>have been? I would doubt that it was that phrasing.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >>Anyone suggest what the original sentiment might have been?
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >>Sam Clements
> > > >> > > ~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >> > >I remember reading about the Essenes or some similar group --
> associated
> > > >> > >with the Dead Sea Scrolls, perhaps? -- that had strictures
> concerning the
> > > >> > >roles of the two hands: the one that went into the communal pot
> > > >>at mealtime
> > > >> > >would never be the one that wiped one's bottom. Whether the
> > > >>left was the
> > > >> > >"clean" and the right the "unclean" I don't remember, but I
> believe the
> > > >> > >roles were immutable.
> > > >> > >AM
> > > >> >
> > > >> >I remember a month-long Sunday school sequence on the Arab world
> > > >> >(mid-70s, Unitarian Church) in which we were instructed to eat with
> > > >> >the right hand (no utensils!) because the left hand was traditionally
> > > >> >used to wipe oneself.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Barbara
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Barbara Need
> > > >> >UChicago
> > > >> >
> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >>
> > > >> Still true for Muslims. If I'm holding something in my right hand and
> > > >> unthinkingly shake hands with a Muslim student with my left hand, I
> > > >> immediately know I've committed a faux pas from the look on the
> face of my
> > > >> student.
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> > > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > > >-----
> > > > -Sam'l Clemens
> > > >
> > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dennis R. Preston
> > > University Distinguished Professor
> > > Department of English
> > > Morrill Hall 15-C
> > > Michigan State University
> > > East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > -----
> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
>--
>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>-----
> -Sam'l Clemens
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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