words starting with "ex"

Tue Jul 24 13:42:14 UTC 2007

Maybe this is part of what bringing in a trained phonetician entails, but it
seems to me that discussing things like "well, this sounds sort of like a
short 'i' but also kind of like a short 'e'" would be much more productive
and less speculative if there were some acoustic-phonetic analysis, like a
few formants traced in Praat. That still doesn't answer the question of
which sound files are useful to analyze, of course.

On 7/24/07, Laurence Urdang <urdang at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Urdang <urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
> Subject:      Re: words starting with "ex"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I really think that these issues ought to be taken up in detail with a
> trained phonetician who has experience in IPA and dictionary
> transcription.  There are conventions that are followed that might
> contradict the views of those who are not experts and who rely on
> impression.
>   L. Urdang
>
> Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>   ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> Subject: Re: words starting with "ex"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Actually truespel book 2 puts the phonetic word first, enabling one to
> look
> up the spelling of a word from pronunciation (assuming the spoken word
> being
> looked up phonetically is spoken as in the talking dictionaries I used as
> reference). In the truespel beginners dictionary, book 3, the first part
> has the tradspel word first and the second part has the phonetic word
> first
> (both alphabetically) for looking up both ways. This is actually the VOA
> simplified dictionary with truespel added for a guide where no
> pronunciation
> guide exists (ixists?)
>
> Many dictionaries are from UK, and I think perhaps "ix" for "ex" is the
> norm
> there. In USA I doubt it, but have nothing to go by but my ears, which is
> all any of us have to go by. So do the majority of Americans say "ixcited"
> or "ixperience" or "ixample"? I truly think not.
>
> Better, if unstressed "ex" doesn't quite sound like a full "short e," to
> call it an allophone of "short e" instead of "short i" or an allophone of
> "short i". That would agree at least with the tradspel of it and I think
> the majority way it is actually said in USA.
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at
> authorhouse.com.
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Laurence Urdang
> >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Re: words starting with "ex"
> >Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:07:34 -0700
> >
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> >Poster: Laurence Urdang
> >Subject: Re: words starting with "ex"
>
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Zurinskas (in particular)
> > Would that it were true that people look up words in the dictionary to
> >find out how they are pronounced by most of the cultured speakers!
> > I think you'll find that most dictionaries show IPA [I] for the initial
> >sound in ex- words; but it is not a schwa.
> > L. Urdang
> >
> >Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> >Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >Subject: Re: words starting with "ex"
>
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Thanks Urdang,
> >
> >Actually m-w.com foespelz (phonetically spells) many of the words that
> >start
> >with "ex" with a short i. In every case the speaker dutifully says the
> word
> >with a short i. This is apparently scripted. But in the case of schwa,
> the
> >speakers have leeway, and it's been a bit of a challenge to determine the
> >many sounds of schwa that they say.
> >
> >I personally do not think the majority of Americans say "short i" instead
> >of
> >"short e" for words that start with "ex". Americans don't say "stock
> >ixchange". My other position is proactive on this, which is to maintain
> >that we should keep letter/sound relationships whenever we can for ease
> of
> >teaching reading and spelling. That's the way it was always meant to be,
> >the alphabetic principle.
> >
> >The best English accent has the least exceptions (not ixceptions) to the
> >phonetic patters of the written word.
> >
> >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at
> >authorhouse.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Laurence Urdang
> > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >Subject: Re: words starting with "ex"
> > >Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 07:30:43 -0700
> > >
> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >-----------------------
> > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >Poster: Laurence Urdang
> > >Subject: Re: words starting with "ex"
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >Your comment about the pronunciation of ex- words is more a matter of
> > >phonetic transcription by M-W editors than a strict matter of
> > >pronunciation. I call your attention to something that always confused
> me
> > >in my youth (spent with M-W Second Unabridged, in which the final -y in
> > >words like city were transcribed as "short i," in other words, a sound
> > >identical to that in the cit- part. I could not understand which
> >Americans
> > >were saying (British-sounding) "siti" instead of "sitee," which is what
> I
> > >was hearing. The same practices apply to the initial ex-often
> transcribed
> > >as "igz-" rather than "eks."
> > > It was not till I did the pronunciations for the Funk & Wagnalls
> > >International Edition (1956) and the Random House Unabridged (1966)
> that
> > >these sounds came to be transcribed as better described by the (IPA)
> [i]
> > >sound, as in peek. The problem arose because of the convention of
> >choosing
> > >between the transcription of the unstressed "short -i" sound and the
> > >allophonic "ee" sound, which most dictionaries use today.
> > > L. Urdang
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >-----------------------
> > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >Poster: Scot LaFaive
> > >Subject: Re: words starting with "ex"
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > >Do you think this is correct for American dialect?
> > >
> > >Which American dialect?
> > >
> > >Scot
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Tom Zurinskas
> > > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >Subject: words starting with "ex"
> > > >Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 03:36:18 +0000
> > > >
> > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > >-----------------------
> > > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > >Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> > > >Subject: words starting with "ex"
> > >
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >Words starting with "ex"
> > > >
> > > >There are 64 words in the top 5,000 words of English that start with
> >"ex"
> > > >according to the word-count analysis of English media text by Collins
> > > >Cobuild.
> > > >They are listed below. Of interest is how the first sound of "ex" is
> > > >pronounced
> > > >by the speakers in m-w.com. They may say it with "short e" or "short
> >i."
> > > >They are faithful to the phonetic spelling that m-w.com provides.
> > > >Without peeking at m-w.com, take the test. Which words take which
> > > >pronunciations for "ex." Do you think this is correct for American
> > > >dialect?
> > > >
> > > >The words are listed in order of popularity
> > > >1 example
> > > >2 experience
> > > >3 except
> > > >4 exactly
> > > >5 expected
> > > >6 expect
> > > >7 exercise
> > > >8 extent
> > > >9 explain
> > > >10 explained
> > > >11 extra
> > > >12 expression
> > > >13 extremely
> > > >14 existence
> > > >15 expensive
> > > >16 exist
> > > >17 extreme
> > > >18 expressed
> > > >19 excellent
> > > >20 exchange
> > > >21 existing
> > > >22 examination
> > > >23 express
> > > >24 extraordinary
> > > >25 experienced
> > > >26 explanation
> > > >27 examples
> > > >28 excitement
> > > >29 executive
> > > >30 extended
> > > >31 excuse
> > > >32 exciting
> > > >33 expert
> > > >34 existed
> > > >35 exposed
> > > >36 examined
> > > >37 excited
> > > >38 exact
> > > >39 expansion
> > > >40 experiences
> > > >41 exists
> > > >42 exercises
> > > >43 experts
> > > >44 experiment
> > > >45 examine
> > > >46 external
> > > >47 experiments
> > > >48 expenditure
> > > >49 exhausted
> > > >50 exception
> > > >51 expense
> > > >52 expecting
> > > >53 extension
> > > >54 extend
> > > >55 explaining
> > > >56 explosion
> > > >57 exploitation
> > > >58 examinations
> > > >59 extensive
> > > >60 expectations
> > > >61 exhibition
> > > >62 excess
> > > >63 exposure
> > > >64 explains
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >According to m-w.com over eighty percent of the words start with
> "short
> > >i".
> > > >In the count of word instances in text, it's eighty six percent. I
> > > >personally believe that this is more UK than USA accent.
> > > >
> > > >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> > > >See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
> at
> > > >authorhouse.com.
> > > >
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> >Laurence Urdang
> >4 Laurel Drive
> >Old Lyme, Connecticut 06371
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