"Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736?

[Joel S. Berson]

Thanks, Ben [off-list].  I think we're homing in on it.  Now if there
only were some primary source information about the phrase and "club"!

Joel

At 10/4/2007 12:31 AM, you wrote:
>On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net> wrote:
> > >-----
> > >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke.
> > >_Journal of American Folklore_  Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118
> > >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I
> > >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's
> > >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch
> > >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home,
> > >or hunk, to these Scotch children.
> > >-----
> >
> > There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet.
> >
> > This "I spy" was apparently what would now be called "hide and seek".
> >
> > "Hunk" = "home"/"base" in such games, apparently, = Dutch "honk". It
> > appears in DARE.
>
>Indeed. From Stewart Culin, "Street Games of Boys in Brooklyn, N. Y."
>_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 4, No. 14 (Jul. 1891), p. 226:
>
>-----
>I Spy, or Hide and Seek.
>A boundary of a block is agreed upon, within which the players may
>hide, and then they count out to determine who shall be "it" for the
>first game. A lamp-post or tree is taken as the "home" or "hunk;" the
>one who is "it" must stand there with his eyes closed, and count five
>hundred by fives, crying out each hundred in a loud voice, while the
>others go hide. [etc.]
>-----
>
>I don't see anything in that Culin article suggesting a "Scotch"
>origin, as Hoke claims. Dutch does indeed seem far more likely. Here's
>the OED etymology for the relevant sense of "hunk":
>
>-----
>[a. Du. _honk_ goal, home, in a game; of Frisian origin: cf. WFris.
>_honcke_, _honck_ 'house, place of refuge or safe abode' (Japix);
>EFris. _hunk_ 'corner, nook, retreat, home in a game'
>(Doornkaat-Koolman).]
>-----
>
>--Ben Zimmer
>
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