antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
Wilson Gray
hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Fri Oct 5 04:03:15 UTC 2007
Bruce Dern! I knew that "Park" was really "Pak," but I thought that
the r-ful spelling was the consequence of Americanization driven by
the large number of units of the 8th Army stationed in South Korea.
Wasn't there a president known as Park Chung-Hee or something similar,
back in the day?
-Wilson
On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
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> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British
> influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named
> 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/).
>
> dInIs
>
>
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> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote
> >and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account
> >for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless
> >it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was
> >followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE
> >dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found
> >not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read
> >probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is
> >irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set
> >the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used
> >it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native
> >speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what
> >I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have
> >to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording.
> >
> >That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> >
> >-Wilson
> >
> >On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Wilson,
> >>
> >> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic
> >> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't
> >> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er
> >> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother"
> >> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality
> >> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or
> >> both).
> >>
> >> dInIs
> >>
> >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >-----------------------
> >> >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >> >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's
> >> >gwine _ter_ do it."
> >> >
> >> >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE.
> >> >
> >> >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I
> >> >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare
> >> >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home
> >> >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from
> >> >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use
> >> >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r"
> >> >where the standard, at least, does use one.`
> >> >
> >> >-Wilson
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >>-----------------------
> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >> >>
> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
> > > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it.
> >> >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831]
> >> >>
> >> >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
> >> >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --Ben Zimmer
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >> >-----
> >> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >> >
> >> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dennis R. Preston
> >> University Distinguished Professor
> >> Department of English
> >> 15C Morrill Hall
> >> Michigan State University
> >> East Lansing, MI 48824
> >> 517-353-4736
> >> preston at msu.edu
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >-----
> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> --
> It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit
> himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man
> thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred
> North Whitehead
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
> Office: (517) 353-4736
> Fax: (517) 353-3755
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
-Sam'l Clemens
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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