antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)

Fri Oct 5 12:23:22 UTC 2007

Of course /pak/ to us does not look like it contains the "ah" sound, but rather like it's pronounced "pack" in American English.  The best choice to spell the "ah" sound is "aa" as in "Saab".  In truespel it would be ~paak.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.

> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:03:15 -0400
> From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bruce Dern! I knew that "Park" was really "Pak," but I thought that
> the r-ful spelling was the consequence of Americanization driven by
> the large number of units of the 8th Army stationed in South Korea.
> Wasn't there a president known as Park Chung-Hee or something similar,
> back in the day?
>
> -Wilson
>
> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston  wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British
>> influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named
>> 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/).
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>>
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>-----------------------
>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote
>>>and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account
>>>for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless
>>>it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was
>>>followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE
>>>dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found
>>>not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read
>>>probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is
>>>irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set
>>>the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used
>>>it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native
>>>speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what
>>>I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have
>>>to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording.
>>>
>>>That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>>>
>>>-Wilson
>>>
>>>On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston  wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>>>
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Wilson,
>>>>
>>>> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic
>>>> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't
>>>> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er
>>>> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother"
>>>> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality
>>>> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or
>>>> both).
>>>>
>>>> dInIs
>>>>
>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's
>>>>>gwine _ter_ do it."
>>>>>
>>>>>I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE.
>>>>>
>>>>>Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I
>>>>>choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare
>>>>>dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home
>>>>>in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from
>>>>>bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use
>>>>>an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r"
>>>>>where the standard, at least, does use one.`
>>>>>
>>>>>-Wilson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
>>>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
>>>>>>> bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it.
>>>>>>> [HNP Doc ID 229263831]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
>>>>>> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Ben Zimmer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>-----
>>>>> -Sam'l Clemens
>>>>>
>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dennis R. Preston
>>>> University Distinguished Professor
>>>> Department of English
>>>> 15C Morrill Hall
>>>> Michigan State University
>>>> East Lansing, MI 48824
>>>> 517-353-4736
>>>> preston at msu.edu
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>-----
>>> -Sam'l Clemens
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit
>> himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man
>> thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred
>> North Whitehead
>>
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> University Distinguished Professor
>> Department of English
>> Morrill Hall 15-C
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
>> Office: (517) 353-4736
>> Fax: (517) 353-3755
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
> --
> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> -----
> -Sam'l Clemens
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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