antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
Dennis Preston
preston at MSU.EDU
Wed Oct 10 22:43:02 UTC 2007
Where you been, Wilson? .I heard high yeller (only from Black folk)
in the Louisville area very frequently in the late 50s and early 60s.
I was later amused in some PhD class at Wisconsin, where it was
"revealed" to me as a term none of us would ever have encountered.
Maybe they thought they were in touch with people with limited
encounters. Maybe they were right, now that I think about it.
dInIs
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
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>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Someone actually writes "high yeller"?! Who knew? Well, BE does insert
>/r/ a la Britspeak.
>
>FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever
>race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any
>evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in
>the past? My Texas and Alabama friends and relatives use(d) "bright"
>(Texas) and "bright-skinned" (Alabama). In Saint Louis,
>"light-skinned" was the universal term, though a couple consisting of
>a dark-skinned partner and a light-skinned partner might be referred
>to jokingly as "night & day." Recently, I've been hearing white people
>refer to a couple consisting of a black person and a white person as
>"night & day," replacing the older "salt-&-pepper team."
>
>I first heard "salt & pepper team" on a TV cop show set in Los
>Angeles, only later hearing it in the Boston wild applied to me and
>one of my housemates. She was a *very* dark-skinned white person,
>darker than my mother, in fact, after a summer of soaking up the UV,
>of Rumanian-Jewish descent. So, I felt that evvithang would be cool.
>Unfortunately, there must be some racist version of gaydar. As soon as
>we got out of the car, shouts of "salt-&-paper team" began to rain
>down upon us. Oh, well. What can you do?
>
>-Wilson
>
>-Wilson
>On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers.
>> >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do,
>> >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-)
>> >
>> >-Wilson
>>
>> Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that
>> "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller"
>> (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather
>> than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is
>> essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")?
>>
>> LH
>>
>> >
>> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> >>-----------------------
>> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
>> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>> >>
>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about
>> >> orthographic <r> in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically
>> >> <er> used to represent [@:]).
>> >>
>> > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
>> >> > Wilson,
>> >> >
>> >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic
> > >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't
>> >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er
>> >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother"
> > >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality
>> >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or
>> >> > both).
>> >> >
>> >> > dInIs
>>
>> >> >
>> >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> >> > >-----------------------
>> >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>> >>
>>> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > >
>>
>> >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's
>> >> > >gwine _ter_ do it."
>> >> > >
>> >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I
>> >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare
>> >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine
>>from down home
>> >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd
>>speaker/singer from
>> >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use
>> >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r"
>> >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.`
>> >> > >
>> >> > >-Wilson
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> >> > >>-----------------------
>> >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
>> >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>> >> > >>
>> >>
>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > >>
>>
>> >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say
>>that, hits 'Katy,
>> >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it.
>> >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831]
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that,
>>hits 'Katy,
>> >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> --Ben Zimmer
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>> > > > >>
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>>
>> >> > >--
>> >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>complaint to
>> >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> >> > >-----
>> >> > > -Sam'l Clemens
>> >> > >
>> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>>
>> >> > --
>> >> > Dennis R. Preston
>> >> > University Distinguished Professor
>> >> > Department of English
>> >> > 15C Morrill Hall
>> >> > Michigan State University
>> >> > East Lansing, MI 48824
>> >> > 517-353-4736
>> >> > preston at msu.edu
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> >--
>> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> >-----
>> > -Sam'l Clemens
>> >
>> >------------------------------------------------------------
>> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>--
>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>-----
> -Sam'l Clemens
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
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